Episode 27
Leading with authenticity
Authentic leadership, driven by personal beliefs and a genuine concern for the impact one's decisions and actions have on others, is crucial for building strong relationships and a sense of purpose and belonging in the workplace.
Brendan McCafferty has run large insurance companies and broking businesses, and with smaller, more entrepreneurial ventures. After stepping back from the executive world, he now serves as a non-executive chair for the National Employment Savings Trust (NEST), which manages retirement savings for about 13 million people in the UK.
In this episode, Julia and Brendan discuss authenticity in leadership and its impact on relationship building in the workplace, the power of acknowledging everyone's contributions, and how self-reflection can improve leadership skills and personal growth.
Transcript
Creating impact happens in every moment, every interaction, and every relationship, a catalyst of energy coming together.
Julia:No one remembers exactly what was said, but can recall how they felt.
Julia:My guest this week reflects on the power every leader has to create a lasting impact in the world through every relationship.
Julia:I'm Julia Rebholz, welcome to Generative Leaders.
Brendan:I'm a financial services guy really, uh, professionally.
Brendan:I have spent most of my career in insurance with a, an unusual combination of things.
Brendan:I've run big broking businesses and big insurance companies, very corporate environments, and then I've done things in businesses much smaller and more entrepreneurial including a startup.
Brendan:And I kind of left the CEO world and the executive part of my life behind a couple of years ago, about three years ago actually, took a bit of time out, thought about what I wanted to do, and decided I wanted to be a non-exec.
Brendan:So now I am chair of an organisation, a wonderful organisation called Nest, which is the National Employment Savings Trust.
Brendan:And we look after the savings for retirement of about 13 million people in the UK.
Brendan:And we look after investing their assets, uh, about 40 billion pounds presently.
Brendan:And we're growing incredibly quickly, so you know, the organisation will be looking after a hundred billion of people's monies and savings by the end of the decade.
Brendan:That's the key thing I do.
Brendan:I'm also on the board of a very specialist insurance company that operates in the healthcare sector, and I am a co-investor alongside private equity in a fascinating broking business with people that I love and, and get along with famously, and that's important to me.
Brendan:So those are the three principle things, that.
Brendan:Outside of that, I'm a trustee for Blueprint for Better Business, concerned with promoting the idea that businesses should have a purpose and should see their role in society as important.
Brendan:And I'm a trustee of a, uh, a Catholic diocese in the north of England.
Julia:And you touched on your life having a lot of different facets to it, you know, in the, in both the work that you do and and the things that you are interested in.
Julia:So in all those facets of your life what would you describe as a generative leader?
Julia:What have you seen about that?
Brendan:I guess the older I've got, I mean initially I felt my career was about very fundamental things.
Brendan:It was about providing for a young family, and it was about making progress and educating myself.
Brendan:And I began to realise that actually I was exceeding my own expectations in many ways.
Brendan:And as part of that was collecting a series of wonderful experiences.
Brendan:And often that was about the people I met, but it was also sometimes about the places I went and the things I encountered.
Brendan:And so that kind of really increased my curiosity and I began to feel less limited in what I thought I could do, and made progress by kind of saying yes, quite a lot to things that presented themselves to me and that's really served me well.
Brendan:And I enjoy the variety of the things that I've done.
Brendan:And, you know, I felt uninhibited, probably.
Brendan:I think that's because of the surprise I have at, what the journey I've had.
Brendan:It was a very unplanned and unexpected journey in many ways.
Brendan:I far as far outstripped my expectations.
Brendan:I look back at the 20-year-old and the 30-year-old, and I, I sometimes think, what would it be like to go back to that version of me and tell 'em about the experiences that await?
Brendan:You know, I, I feel incredibly privileged and very happy with all of those experiences and, and you know, I've had a very happily family life running alongside it, which makes it much, much richer.
Brendan:So, you know, when I think about that, and I think about particularly where I'm at now I realise that those experiences are really important, but really what you realise is the effect that the things you do, the decisions you make, and the path you travel has on others.
Brendan:And as you mature as a leader, you particularly start to register, I believe, the impact that you have on other people.
Brendan:And I remember reaching a point, following some coaching actually, where I was, I'd done the first probably big, serious job, uh, in my career leading lots of people.
Brendan:And I and I look back at it now and I cringe a little.
Brendan:I think, oh my goodness, you know, there was so much I got wrong.
Brendan:And I realised that what I was doing was conforming to some theoretical expectation that I thought others had about what kind of leadership I should provide and how I should be in that workplace.
Brendan:And realised that wasn't really, you know, great and that I, I needed to change and adapt and be more me.
Brendan:And that in the end became about, uh, thinking about impact quite a lot, and thinking about, well, when I finished, what do I want to remember about my work?
Brendan:And I want to, you know, think about it in terms of the impact on people and the wider world.
Brendan:And that for me is the key.
Brendan:And I when, I thought about that question, what does it mean to me?
Brendan:'Cause I know that you ask your interviewees that question.
Brendan:And for me it's about time generations.
Brendan:You know, it comes from the Latin generat, doesn't it?
Brendan:And it's, And it's about creating things.
Brendan:and, And what do I create?
Brendan:Well, I create impact in, all the interactions I have.
Brendan:And being mindful of how that impact lands with people is a very good place to start.
Brendan:If you can get that right, good things happen, because it builds trust and it builds connection, and it builds relationships.
Brendan:And you can use those relationships to have a wider impact because you can't do much by yourself.
Julia:And what have you seen about how to build those strong relationships so that you can do things together?
Brendan:Somebody very wise said something that, you know, you know those conversations that you have with people where people say things in passing and you kind of, you think you have this moment of startling reaction and you think, goodness, wow.
Brendan:They don't know they've done it very often, uh, but it lives with you, right?
Brendan:And somebody said something to me some years ago that's really stuck with me.
Brendan:And they just pointed out, well, business is a human system.
Brendan:And I think that's right at the heart of this.
Brendan:It's about, you know, what you've got to realise is that every aspect of human endeavor, whether it's in the workplace or it's in any role in the world, in society, in business, you can do it your way and you've got to find a way of, doing it that's real for you.
Brendan:And if you do that, the chances of making connections with others is really high.
Brendan:But if you're trying to be somebody that's not you, if you are, you know, you're not being that real person, then the connections actually are quite difficult.
Brendan:And that, that, that was a really big moment for me was thinking in those terms.
Brendan:It's not about structures and organisation design and things, it's about connection.
Brendan:And if you can find the thing that binds you together with other people, it's such a powerful thing.
Brendan:And we, and I think we call that purpose.
Brendan:And you know, I've learned that.
Brendan:As a leader, there is a fantastic tool available to you that you can use to achieve that effect.
Brendan:Because if you can describe your purpose to the people around you, if you can turn your common endeavor into words that have an impact in people's minds and hearts, you're going to make some progress.
Brendan:And I always make a point of, whenever I'm in front of a group of people, as a leader as it were, I go to that.
Brendan:I always talk to them in terms of their work and the significance of their work and the impact of their work.
Brendan:And that gets us off to a great start, invariably.
Brendan:'Cause I'm saying to them, you are a value and I value what you do and your contribution, and mine is only equal to yours in that regard.
Brendan:And it's a very powerful place to start.
Julia:Such a different way of thinking though, isn't it?
Julia:Because we've got this idea of leaders and hierarchies and uh, and that type of thing.
Julia:And, and kind of your, what you're saying in your approach is that you don't start from that place.
Julia:You start from everyone's playing a role and what role is everyone playing that's contributing to a common outcome?
Brendan:And a common good, right?
Brendan:There's a mutual interest in doing work that has a significance to it.
Brendan:So, you know, I'll give you some examples.
Brendan:I ran a business that had lots of people in call centers and I would make a point, 'cause we, we'd do our thing, you know, as leaders, we'd go around and we have big flashing lights and stage and music.
Brendan:And I'd always say, less razzamataz, please.
Brendan:Can I just talk to people?
Brendan:And we just put a circle in the middle of the, the floor.
Brendan:And, I always started with the line.
Brendan:I just I want to start by saying to everybody that your work matters.
Brendan:Let me tell you what I notice about your work and why I think it matters.
Brendan:And I would say to them that when I listen to calls, I can hear the anxiety in a in a customer's voice, in a client's voice.
Brendan:I can hear the lack of understanding, the searching for guidance the asking for help that's going on in that connection.
Brendan:And I'm able to say, and you help them with that.
Brendan:And that's an important part of their day, that they took the time to call you and they want your help and they need your help and you can give them that help.
Brendan:That's a generous thing to spend your day doing.
Brendan:And you know, they and using their skills and their experience they brought solutions and help to that person in that moment.
Brendan:And often in the businesses that I was running, you know, there were people that had tried different routes to finding help and hadn't got that help.
Brendan:So by the time they came to us, they were pretty anxious.
Brendan:So, you know, it's perfectly possible to pick out any individual person's contribution.
Brendan:In Nest there's a lady who appears at about seven o'clock in the evening.
Brendan:I'm a bit of a night owl.
Brendan:I'm still usually in the office if not having dinner with somebody.
Brendan:Maria is from Bulgaria and she works for a contractor in our office and she comes and cleans our office in the evening.
Brendan:And she, there's a lovely lady.
Brendan:We have a chat now and again, and she tells me about her daughter who lives in the US.
Brendan:She's incredibly proud of her daughter.
Brendan:And she works two or three jobs.
Brendan:You know, she's just a, an absolute uh, example of hard work and endeavor.
Brendan:And she always has a smile.
Brendan:And I just make a point to her saying, thanks for what you do.
Brendan:You know, it's really appreciated.
Brendan:It allows us to be focused on what we need to do.
Brendan:Do you know what we do?
Brendan:And I explained to her what we do, and she lights up, you know, and she asks about how we're doing and you know, what else are you doing, you know, with Nest.
Brendan:And I just love that, you know.
Brendan:If you can make that connection to people and give them some context for what their work does and what contribution it makes, it has a power in their lives.
Brendan:And that's about the dignity of, the workplace too.
Brendan:And giving people a sense of purpose.
Brendan:It's just, I think it's so important and so enabling, uh, to, to people's motivation and sense of belonging.
Julia:You speak, Brendan, with such authenticity, and yet we've probably all encountered people that will say the same things as you, but do it inauthentically.
Julia:You know, it is sort of like I'm ticking a box of shaking someone's hand or thanking them.
Julia:How do you discern the difference between somebody's genuine, authentic engagement versus, you know, something that's a bit more fabricated.
Brendan:Well, that's a great question.
Brendan:I think for me it's about their curiosity.
Brendan:You know?
Brendan:So do they want to know about you or do they want to know about it?
Brendan:You know, so, so the, it is often the business or the thing you do for the business or, you know, so what's the next question?
Brendan:And do they have a curiosity about your experience and what you are looking for and get outta what you do?
Brendan:And do they have a concern for your wellbeing in that or not?
Brendan:And you might not get there immediately, but if you are meeting them for the third or fourth time, you still haven't got that, then I begin to wonder, because, you know, at the heart of this, I think is that belief that's emerged in my mind over time.
Brendan:The real, not belief.
Brendan:It was a belief, but it's also realisation that this is all about connection and relationship, and the, you know, pursuing a business outcome and a business goal, if it lacks that, well, it's lacking a lot.
Brendan:Because you're not energising the system with connection and belonging.
Brendan:You're not energising the system with, you know, the source of motivation that this can provide.
Brendan:And that cohesiveness of binding people together is perhaps the most powerful thing that you can have.
Brendan:And that gives people the, uh, the safety and the, and the sense of, willingness to make that contribution openly.
Brendan:So, you know, that's what I look for.
Brendan:And there are people that I come across and I think, what a shame that you can't see that, you know, and you, you try and make the connection and all they wanna do is move the conversation on, ' cause they're desperate to get to the next topic.
Brendan:I, look, I don't claim to be great at it.
Brendan:I'm not, you know, I'm quite, I can be quite shy and particularly if I'm meeting new people.
Brendan:I'm not brilliant at kind of putting myself out there all the time on that stuff, and I have to work quite hard at it.
Brendan:But when it happens, it is lovely, you know, particularly when you get a recognition of it that people can sense it.
Brendan:So yeah, you know, I think the corporate world is full of situations where people act in the role they're performing to an expectation that they've formed in their own mind.
Brendan:Often it's about imitating others, which we call culture, observed and repeated behaviors.
Brendan:And I think the best businesses, businesses that I admire are ones where people just show up as themselves because that's what the person that founded the business or leads the business does too, and they kind of notice that and go, oh, it must be okay then.
Julia:Well, and it's so funny, isn't it?
Julia:Because you know, there, there isn't anyone else that you can be other than you because everyone else is taken.
Julia:People know it, don't they?
Julia:They know when you are, not being authentic.
Brendan:Yeah.
Brendan:And, and, And the other thing that I've seen and experienced and learned from is you find out how people are when they're under pressure.
Brendan:And, you know, the style of leadership changes and the person is revealed at that moment, in my experience.
Brendan:And whether they are instinctively wanting to reach out for support, to take a view from others, to center themselves in the knowledge of who they are, and trying to, you know, manage the boundaries of their own poor behaviors and make them better, or whether they're
Brendan:just like, no, this is my reaction to that, and it's all about me and my perspective is really revealing, and you can see that for sure.
Brendan:So that's always very telling for me.
Brendan:And when I see that I don't, I, I try not to judge.
Brendan:I hope I don't judge.
Brendan:I just kind of think, ah, right, okay.
Brendan:That's where you are in your development.
Brendan:I'm work in progress too.
Brendan:I definitely am.
Brendan:I'm astonished at how much, uh, realisation I'm still capable of, of 57 years of age, uh, and how, you know, stunned I can be that I'm still able to go, oh my goodness, that's what I do, you know?
Brendan:Yeah.
Brendan:It's great fun.
Julia:Well, I love the fact, Brendan, that you are saying every human being has the capacity to learn.
Julia:No matter what you've been through, your experience, your age, you know, you can still have realisations, you can still grow, you can still learn, you know, it's, it's a never ending journey.
Brendan:It is.
Brendan:Absolutely.
Brendan:And you know what I would add this, that part of how you do that is you do look at what others do and you learn from them too.
Brendan:'Cause that's what we also need to do.
Brendan:But doing it with a level of awareness, I hope and an understanding.
Brendan:So I, I hope that my filter is more than it used to be now,, the one of what impact am I having on other people?
Brendan:And, you know, that's, that's what I would like to, continue to work on indefinitely is understanding, thinking about and calibrating that and making more and more clear choices.
Brendan:But at the heart of it, not slipping into a learned behavior but one that feels natural to me, right?
Brendan:And remaining, I can't think of a better word.
Brendan:Real, you know, and not going back to some of those old behaviors that I, I tried to leave behind that were all about.
Brendan:Being the person that I thought others wanted me to be in this kind of role.
Julia:And it, it sounds like, Brendan, that you take a lot of time to reflect and uh, introspect into some of these things.
Julia:And a lot of leaders who are very busy may say, oh, I don't have time for that.
Julia:You know, I don't, I, it is not something that I could I could do.
Julia:How do you know, you've got a very full life, lots on, how do you know, how do you fit that into your daily habits and practice?
Brendan:Well, I wasn't always very good at that.
Brendan:I wouldn't say I'm brilliant now I'm learning, but I definitely didn't take time out to do that.
Brendan:So what I did do is I, I met somebody who was a professional coach and worked with them over quite a long period of time.
Brendan:And that space that gave me was incredibly valuable.
Brendan:And he was brilliant at the self-awareness conversations.
Brendan:And that shaped a lot of my thinking 'cause it did give me that space, and it made me think about the impact it was having.
Brendan:And it coincided with a dissatisfaction of being involved in the system of business, in which I was increasingly aware of some of the harms that it could do and some of the poor outcomes it could create.
Brendan:And some of the, you know, the terrible compromises and bad choices in, in situations of dilemma that were made.
Brendan:I'm feeling less and less comfortable with that and wanting to find a solution to it.
Brendan:So, you know, it came through quite a lot of hard work actually, to get into some better habits and to start to look out for the signals and the, you know, I think what we call EQ these days, you know, kind of conscious EQ I'd call it.
Brendan:It's having a constant filter of looking for that impact and learning from it.
Brendan:Understanding by talking about it, what my own behaviors and attitudes were, including biases by the way that got in the way.
Brendan:And then just taking, you know, short periods of time every day to do that and just to tune out from it, and then think about it later.
Brendan:So not try and do it in the moment all the time is really important, because you lack perspective in that moment.
Brendan:Whenever I have a challenging moment or there's a, a difficult conversation, I never allow myself to worry about it too much at the time.
Brendan:But I do think about it afterwards and I deliberately do so.
Julia:So even if it's uncomfortable, you want to face into it and see what there is to learn from it?
Brendan:Definitely.
Brendan:So there was an interesting moment for me recently where as part of a group of directors in a boardroom, we did some psychometrics, which is always dangerous territory for any EDs.
Brendan:And without generalising too much, it is pretty clear that most of the people in the room made decisions based on analytics and I made them on beliefs.
Brendan:And you know, I'm very analytical.
Brendan:I'm an accountant.
Brendan:It's in my DNA, but as I've got older, you know, my beliefs drive a lot of my attitudes.
Brendan:And that's partly about conviction and it's partly about the determination that I'm going to be the person I want to be in the workplace.
Brendan:And I'm not gonna be bent outta shape by it.
Brendan:You know, so that that's become part of the way in which I go about my day.
Brendan:But it's still absolutely work in progress.
Brendan:It really is.
Brendan:And I'm fascinated by people with real neurodiversity.
Brendan:And, you know, a more recent realisation for me has been, you know, what that means in the way that you receive other people too.
Brendan:So it's not just about you, it's about the way that you accept other people's differences and embrace that,
Brendan:I've done some interviews this week and there is a commonality to the way in which people present at a certain, you know, after certain numbers of years in the workplace.
Brendan:We do converge in the way that people come together.
Brendan:You know, we wear the same uniform in the city, that kind of thing.
Brendan:And somebody came in the room with, we had a very blustery, you know, very different style of presentation and I could just see the mental agility of this person in front of me.
Brendan:I just thought it was amazing and wonderful.
Brendan:And he was really conscious of it because he knew that he didn't conform.
Brendan:You know, so, so, you know, it's great to get yourself into a space where you can just say that's a positive thing, not a negative thing.
Julia:And then how do you see that in, in a culture of a workplace?
Julia:Because obviously, as a chair, as a non-executive, you know, having that diversity of thought, having that difference is really important.
Julia:But because people find it difficult to be open and accepting, it can create friction.
Julia:So how would you see people dealing with that?
Brendan:But you know, this is, this has been fascinating for me, because this transition to non-exec where you're not in charge, is incredibly liberating.
Brendan:It's also quite challenging.
Brendan:Because you're at a point where, you know, you've seen a lot, quite honestly and you know, there's, there are very few movies you haven't seen.
Brendan:And when you see situations, it's very tempting to get in solution mode.
Brendan:And you learn to try and avoid that, dial that down, ask questions.
Brendan:that's the, the principle tool you've got is asking a good quality question and letting it sit, and drawing out connections between things by the series of questions you ask.
Brendan:And a bit of coaching and some empathy and some, you know, safety in the relationship with the person you're trying to help, all of that stuff.
Brendan:But, you know, one of the biggest parts of it is that you're in a room.
Brendan:In Nest, you know, I think I, I lose count, there's nine or 10 non-exec directors.
Brendan:You've got equal wisdom in the room, and I've got no right to think for a moment that some, in some bizarre way, my wisdom is more senior to anybody else's.
Brendan:It, simply isn't.
Brendan:And the opportunity to, to listen to colleagues' perspectives and realise the difference, and be, and get comfortable with that difference is so incredibly useful because it, it genuinely leads to better decisions, right?
Brendan:There's, it's not an accident that.
Brendan:UK corporate governance has evolved the way it has.
Brendan:I think it's, it's reflecting that human reality that if you bring together a group of people with a common motivation and they understand their role in the system you are creating, and you give them a place where they can co-create, where they can do governance and stewardship, and they can make decisions that are informed by the right voices, it's such a powerful thing.
Brendan:And that implies, does it not, a willingness to listen to voices that are different to yours, and to views that are different to yours, and to get comfortable with the idea that you might not see the thing the same way.
Brendan:And what interests me is that the number of instances, and we've dealt with some, you know, challenging things in the boardrooms I've been in over the last couple of years, that people do respect opinions of others.
Brendan:But in the end, every individual has to accept that they're not gonna get the answer they'd like.
Brendan:And that's what the system requires to work at its best.
Brendan:It's the synthesis of all the wisdom, right?
Brendan:And tho those wisdoms reflect the individual person's experience.
Brendan:And you know that diversity is widespread.
Brendan:There's a tendency to think about a boardroom as well.
Brendan:It's full of people like me, isn't it?
Brendan:Well, it shouldn't be.
Brendan:You know, I'd love to get more diversity into our boardroom.
Brendan:And, you know, a person that I met, 'cause we're, we're interviewing for non-execs right now, was a lot younger than us.
Brendan:Oh my goodness me, I really enjoyed the conversation and you know, I think my, that'd be great to get this person in the boardroom because that will bring something different.
Brendan:There's a generational difference of mindset.
Brendan:And there are so many dimensions to that.
Julia:That is key in almost just accepting the fact that people will be different to you rather than expecting them to be the same.
Brendan:That's exactly it, Julia, you know, it's getting comfortable with the difference.
Brendan:And you know, it's strange.
Brendan:I've, I've come to enjoy that moment where I'm dissatisfied that I didn't get my point across and win that discussion as it were, that, that kind of mindset.
Brendan:And I enjoy the fact that I'm part of a system that's gonna get a better answer because it's not all about what I think, you know?
Brendan:I just think that's very powerful.
Brendan:And that has proven to be a really good way of doing things.
Brendan:I can see, even in a relatively short period of a couple of years, the quality of the better decision making, having longer term, uh, consequences.
Brendan:Not at least because they knock the edges off what I think.
Brendan:I'm in my own way, a little bit different because of my background.
Brendan:Not much, but a little.
Brendan:And that, that's right, you know, that is just right.
Brendan:Especially when in Nest, you know, you're representing 13 million people.
Brendan:Uh, you have to have a broad spectrum of perspective on the lives that people are really leading.
Brendan:It's very hard to achieve that, but if you're not prepared to, to be open and tolerant of other people's different experiences, thank goodness me, you're in trouble.
Julia:Well, it sounds like that would be a great place for us to finish our conversation today.
Brendan:Sure, Julia.
Brendan:We could keep going, but that's not.
Julia:Um, So Brendan, if people want to get in touch with you or know more about your work, how can they do that?
Brendan:Sure.
Brendan:Well, I'm on LinkedIn.
Brendan:I'm very happy to talk to people and, you know, share my experiences and thinking.
Brendan:Probably the two things that would be most interesting to people is go and have a look at Nest Pensions website.
Brendan:Have a look for our, uh, our impact report and our responsible investment report.
Brendan:There are all sorts of documents in there that are very rich resources.
Brendan:I hope that what people will see is the thing that binds those things together is the interest of our members and the purpose we serve.
Brendan:And then secondly, Blueprint for Better Business.
Brendan:Can't resist getting a, a plugin for Blueprint, which is a real centre point, and being so helpful to my formation of my own beliefs and thinking over the years.
Brendan:Is a place where there are tremendous resources to help leaders understand the role of purpose in a business environment and the part it can play and helping them be a better leader.
Julia:Well, Brendan, thank you so much for our conversation today and I'd love to get you back on another uh, conversation when you know you've gone through more evolving in your thinking.
Brendan:Yes.
Brendan:You'll get a different version of Brendan in another five years.
Brendan:Definitely
Julia:Exactly.
Julia:Brilliant.
Julia:Well, thank you so much.
Brendan:my pleasure.
Brendan:Thank you Julia.
Brendan:I, it's been a lot of fun.
Julia:I really enjoyed my conversation with Brendan, and there are a number of things that have really stayed with me since our conversation.
Julia:One is what could you say yes to and where would that take you?
Julia:I know I spend a lot of my time, certainly in my head, thinking, oh no, I couldn't do that.
Julia:Oh no, that's not possible.
Julia:Oh, that's what other people do.
Julia:Whereas maybe if I just said yes a little bit more often, it might take me down different routes.
Julia:The second was, what would you share with your younger self that you've realised that would change something for others?
Julia:It's great to reflect on the learnings that we've had, but sharing those with others can be really powerful sometimes.
Julia:And then thirdly, how often do you reflect on the impact that you are having on others?
Julia:And are you conforming to an idea that you should be, or are you really being you?
Julia:That's a really big question.
Julia:I know for myself that there are times when I reflect afterwards and I think, oh, why was I playing to that stereotype?
Julia:Why did I think I had to be that way?
Julia:I can just be me, everyone else has taken.
Julia:If you've enjoyed this episode and you think it may help somebody else, please go ahead and share it.
Julia:You can do so at generativeleaders.co or on any other podcast platform.
Julia:I look forward to hearing you on the next episode of Generative Leaders.
