Episode 26
Human-centred leadership in the age of AI
Effective leadership means more than just acquiring knowledge and seeking growth. It means understanding the human condition, simplifying our understanding of life, and realigning our priorities towards transformation. It means harnessing the unique aspects of humanity that can’t be replicated by AI, like intuition and the capacity for non-linear creativity and insight.
Jonathan Armes is a psychologist and chartered occupational psychologist who focuses on leadership, team, and personal development through coaching. He helps leaders in reducing the amount of noise and interference created in the workplace due to the growing digital landscape, and works with them to address the human condition.
In this episode, Jonathan and Julia discuss the role of ego in leadership, and the importance of aligning leadership actions with a meaningful purpose beyond commercial growth alone.
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Transcript
Having intelligence is often seen as a skill that we acquire over time.
Julia:Having clear thoughts and access, our sense of simplicity is something we can all have and is universal, but sometimes difficult to gain.
Julia:My guest this week has been working with leaders to help access that intelligence in themselves and with their teams to create better business outcomes.
Julia:I'm Julia Rebholz.
Julia:Welcome to Generative Leaders.
Jonathan:Jonathan Armes.
Jonathan:I'm a psychologist, chartered occupational psychologist working in this space of leadership development and team development and personal development through coaching.
Jonathan:And, um, I've been doing that for a couple of decades, if not more.
Jonathan:And, um, I think it's worth sort of pointing out a sort of really interesting transition that the work that I've done over the years has taken.
Jonathan:And as a sort of starting point, I, I wanted to just raise the, um, the observation, if you like, of the shift in the way that my work has taken over the last, well particularly over the last five or so years.
Jonathan:And it's really been a shift, which has come about, I think as a result of a big change in the way that leadership or the requirement of leadership has shifted in the last five or so years.
Jonathan:Probably generated by a increased social media presence and increased sort of tech, tech presence.
Jonathan:And the way that the work that we are doing has moved away from content and information downloading for leaders to a movement towards, really, I suppose the, the starting point for me is a reduction in the amount of noise and interference that's created in the workplace as a result probably of this increasing
Jonathan:the digital world and the tech world, the amount of media that's coming at us, the amount of noise that's coming at us through all the different, uh, media.
Jonathan:So I think that I, I was hoping we might actually talk about that on one level today, because I think it's quite an important transition that leadership's making and need to sort of attend to.
Jonathan:So the movement away from gathering knowledge to becoming something more about addressing the human condition, if you like, and what that means for leaders in business.
Julia:Well, as you know, the topic of this podcast is around generative leadership, and it'd be lovely to get a sense from you about what, what does that mean to you?
Jonathan:Yeah.
Jonathan:Well, well, I knew I was coming on podcast, and I had to look the word up actually.
Jonathan:Because, you know, it's, it's, it's a great word, but what does it actually mean?
Jonathan:And I guess it's still a word that you can explore, uh, its, its, definition of.
Jonathan:But for me it's about transforming what's there to a place which is different.
Jonathan:So it's how does, how does a leader address his or her job to make a difference in whatever space that they're working in?
Jonathan:And I was thinking about this a little bit in preparation for talking to you and it struck me Julia that a leadership function is two, there's two sort of ways that leaders need to look.
Jonathan:One is kind of internally, so you're looking into the organisation.
Jonathan:And you are addressing engagement levels.
Jonathan:You're you or you, you're actually addressing the operation of the business and you're address addressing how, how people turn up to work.
Jonathan:So engagement levels and the culture of the business and how people are doing in the, in the job that they've got, which is great and it's, it is, it is super important that, that, that leaders do that.
Jonathan:But the other, the other part of the, the leadership function is looking outwards.
Jonathan:So looking at what's possible, looking at the transformation, what what could be.
Jonathan:So people talk about that as a strategic leadership function, which it is of course.
Jonathan:But it's a little bit more than just sort of working out the strategy of the business.
Jonathan:It's also for me, looking at what is not yet in the strategy, but could be in the strategy And we're in such a, an interesting part of.
Jonathan:Transition, if you like, in the leadership role, really pressed by AI, pressed by the increasing use of data, that leaders really need to start to look into creating what is possible but isn't yet there.
Julia:I mean, I think that is the, that is the big question, isn't it?
Julia:Um, because if we look at leadership as a role and a title, it can have one connotation.
Julia:If we look at leadership as a releasing of potential, that has another connotation.
Julia:Um, and if we look at leadership as an engagement of, of energy, and how that energy is used, given it could be used for many different things.
Julia:you know, these are all different questions and, and places to look.
Jonathan:Yeah, for sure.
Jonathan:And, and, you know, leadership, the, the function of leadership is a really privileged one.
Jonathan:That, that's another thing I was kind of really considering about this.
Jonathan:And with that privilege comes responsibility.
Jonathan:I'm sure Spiderman's in there somewhere, but you know, it's not quite that.
Jonathan:But with great privilege is great responsibility.
Jonathan:I know that's not quite the quote, but there's a truth to it.
Jonathan:And I, and I think that for me, it's supporting or the, the work that I'm doing is much more now about supporting people who are in those privileged leadership positions, at seeing how they individually can have an impact on both the people in the organisation, so looking into, into the organisation
Jonathan:as we were just talking about, but also looking outwardly at the community that they live in, and saying, well, how do I use that privilege?
Jonathan:How do I make the best use of the fortunate situation I find myself in to make it work, both in the organisation, but also for the betterment of society?
Jonathan:And I think in that question is a very interesting pull, because you, you are the, the pull is towards, in the commercial sense, in, in terms of the business, the commercial pool, to have a profitable organisation and to have growth and you know, to have shareholders who
Jonathan:are satisfied, and that isn't necessarily in balance with what community actually needs and society needs and the environment needs.
Jonathan:So there's that very interesting kind of pull between those two spaces that I think we have to explore, we have to start to get interested in.
Jonathan:And the other thing, Julia, that I've noticed is working with people.
Jonathan:When you get to it, people want to do both.
Jonathan:That's, that's what I love about the job that we're in.
Jonathan:They do, they just don't know how to, they do want to have a commercially successful organisation, yes.
Jonathan:But in their hearts, in their souls, they do something which has some value, to some legacy, to do something useful that contributes.
Jonathan:Helping people see that you can do both, I think is where I love working.
Julia:And it's so interesting, isn't it?
Julia:Because it's that commercial drive of needing and wanting to have more that capitalism has been built on, which is a very egoic way of being, you know, when, when we get here, we will have this or we will have that, or we'll have the other, and then reaching those points and not being satisfied because it's, it's then, well, what's the next thing?
Julia:What's more, um, and not, not being satisfied with that.
Julia:And then the very peaceful place of being in harmony with what's around you, and feeling the joy in being in that harmony.
Julia:And that seems to be, you know, the battle that every individual, whether they're in a leadership position or not is facing.
Julia:And so, you know, when somebody gets placed in a position of leadership, they still have that going on for them.
Julia:And those that lead without having the position are able to make change too.
Julia:So, you know, it's this really interesting sort of mix and dynamic that's, that's at play here.
Jonathan:Yep, I mean it's so true.
Jonathan:And yet I don't think the two things, growth being one, and, I think the words you were using was a sense of peace and kind of harmony as the other, you know, on the, on the, on the, the polarised range, if you like.
Jonathan:I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
Jonathan:because, I don't think there's anything wrong with growth.
Jonathan:I think growth is wonderful.
Jonathan:That's what we're here to do.
Jonathan:We're here to grow and develop.
Jonathan:But it's when that growth is at, is in is, it's lacking harmony with what we're trying to do.
Jonathan:And we're, we've, you know, I'm sure you've had it, but I've had so many situations where I'm working with an individual, I'm working with a team, or even, you know, a large part of the organisation who kind of know that it's not right, what they're doing.
Jonathan:You know, they kind of intuitively feel this kind of grinding need for growth is unsustainable and not right, but they still have to do it because their shareholders or there's, you know, equity partners or whoever it might be who are demanding it, and absolutely demanding it for, the reason,
Jonathan:no doubt that we get kind of lulled into, which is thinking that when we do have that growth and that, uh, financial return we'll feel great.
Jonathan:But, um, as we often know, that's not true at all as I shall be, uh, exploring in a, I'm just gonna drop this in, in a book that I'm about to write about that relationship.
Jonathan:Because I think it's incredibly interesting subject that we seem to, you know, be dominated by.
Jonathan:And the ego gets very, very interested in it, because the ego's dead interested in cach, you know, it likes it.
Julia:Well, yeah, and, uh, we've used the word ego, but from a psychologist perspective, you know, in layman's terms, what is the ego and does everybody have one?
Julia:Because you know, sometimes we just say, oh, you know, they've got a massive ego, and it's kind of like not everybody has one.
Jonathan:I mean, I'll, I'll give you my view on it, Julia, and I think, I think it's a really interesting one.
Jonathan:Because when, when we people talk about ego, they often have this idea about a sort of arrogant, you know, an arrogance, a sort of showy front.
Jonathan:And, that's really only one part of ego, isn't it?
Jonathan:it's a sort of minor, a small part of it.
Jonathan:But, but ego for me is really any kind of thinking.
Jonathan:I mean, I quite often spend time with, um, people who are feeling, sometimes find myself with people who are feeling, um, anxious or, uh, suffering from the supposed idea of whatever imposter syndrome means for you.
Jonathan:Or they're feeling kind of a victim in some way, and that's as much ego as an arrogant ego.
Jonathan:I mean, it's quite shocking when, um, I'm working with people and they, they feel quite shocked when I, um, explain to them their feeling of being a victim is actually very egotistical.
Jonathan:It sounds quite harsh, but it's true.
Jonathan:So, you know, if I'm here sitting, sitting and licking my wounds and feeling woe is me thought, having, woe is me thoughts, that's ego.
Jonathan:It's about me.
Jonathan:So ego is any thinking that we have about ourselves, which is all our thinking.
Jonathan:So it's basically being human.
Julia:So as they say, Jonathan, you know, egos are like assholes.
Julia:Everyone has one.
Jonathan:I, I'm very glad it was you who said it.
Jonathan:Exactly.
Jonathan:I heard that, that, that comment saying it was opinions.
Jonathan:Opinions are like assholes.
Jonathan:Everyone has one, but you know, it's the same thing, right?
Julia:Well, where do opinions come from?
Julia:They come from our ego.
Jonathan:They're a view, aren't they?
Jonathan:They're a view, They're an idea that we've created which we now want to stand by and make sure that everybody agrees with us and if they don't, we'll battle them for it.
Julia:And that's exactly what being identified with any thoughts, either about ourselves or somebody else or something to do, it creates a closed mind where there's no space for newness, for growth, for seeing, seeing, seeing other possibilities.
Jonathan:Yes.
Jonathan:And the pursuit of growth for the sake of growth Is the same restrictive, uh, energy, it has the same capacity to restrict our thinking to the way that we've done things up to this point.
Jonathan:And that's the only way we can do things, and we have to do it for those reasons.
Jonathan:So if we can see beyond that.
Jonathan:and see the limitation of the thinking that we have, that's got us to where we've got to and with all the benefits, but it's still a limitation.
Jonathan:If we can see beyond that thinking.
Jonathan:See beyond the ego there, we have capacity to have new transformative thinking.
Jonathan:That's what generative leadership for me is.
Jonathan:It's the capacity to think beyond the ego, think beyond the self, and get into a more sort of conscious human place so that we can then transform whatever it is we're doing.
Jonathan:Which by the way, I'm absolutely certain, is if we do that from a place of, you know, soulful connection with what it is that's important, we'll get the commercial growth that we need because the commercial growth is a manifestation of good work, not a manifestation of doing something simply for the sake of growth.
Jonathan:So that might take a little bit longer, right?
Jonathan:There might need to be a little bit more time and thought and consideration that goes into that.
Jonathan:Maybe I'm not certain that's always true, but we'll still get the growth that we're interested in.
Jonathan:But for very different reasons.
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:I mean, it's so interesting, isn't it?
Julia:'Cause it's like, with so many leaders I work with and I'm, I'm sure you do the same, you know, it's like, what are we, what problem are we solving in the world?
Julia:And you know, when you get a response of growth, you say, no, no, no, no.
Julia:That's an outcome.
Julia:What problem are you actually trying to solve?
Julia:And if there's not a good answer to the problem that you're trying to solve, then you're just doing something for the sake of doing something.
Julia:You're not actually trying to solve anything, make anything better.
Julia:You know, do do any of those, those things.
Julia:So I, I think really kind of coming back to that fundamental, humans are built for solving problems.
Julia:I mean, it's what we are brilliant at.
Julia:And then we create this construct of a business in order to bring people together to solve that problem.
Julia:And then somewhere along the line, we forget what problem we were trying to solve and we get caught up in the concept of business, rather than what are we actually here for?
Julia:What are we actually trying to do and what are we mobilising these people to solve?
Julia:And I think it's, it comes from what you alluded to e earlier of being hit with all these different things to focus on, with a lack of single focus.
Jonathan:Yeah, well what, what I was thinking about when you were talking was that this, this sort of, um, you know, what am I adding?
Jonathan:What am I contributing, you know, to the world point?
Jonathan:For me, it was sounding to me like, um, you were talking about some sort of purpose statement or a mission or, or a, you know, Sinek's why, you know, whatever it is, we're trying to answer what it is we're actually here to do.
Jonathan:Um, and I think organ, I think, you know, we've known this for some time, have we not, in business, that actually, if you, uh, engage hearts and minds, you have to have some sort of deeper purpose to what it's you're trying to do.
Jonathan:And you know, yeah, some of the things that, that happen in the world, it's quite hard sometimes for those businesses to have a deeper purpose other than the function that they're in.
Jonathan:I have worked with organisations in the past, and I'm not even gonna talk about the industry they're in because it wouldn't be appropriate.
Jonathan:But, you know, they sit down and you, you try and create a purpose statement for the business, and it's, it's kind of tricky because the function of the business is fundamentally probably to make money, and then it becomes hard.
Jonathan:So the service that they might be providing or the product they might be providing is potentially useful, but the main criteria for that business to be there in most people's mind is growth and income, profit.
Jonathan:So then sort of transition that into a, a meaningful purpose statement become, it feels inauthentic in, in, in those settings.
Jonathan:So I like working with those companies by the way, and I like working with those organisations because there's the capacity for those people who are in those decision making seats to really see something differently about the human condition.
Jonathan:And in that noticing about how the human condition is kind of playing out for us in noticing that for ourselves personally, the focus or the orientation that those people might have, a little bit away from the growth and the, the money, the profit and towards really meaningful purpose might just happen.
Jonathan:It might just happen for those people.
Jonathan:I don't know.
Jonathan:I just kind of, I'm, I'm interested in those people who have not thought about this stuff before.
Jonathan:They've not thought, well, let's talk about thought intelligence.
Jonathan:Thought intelligence for me is, is what we're talking about.
Jonathan:And that's my way of describing something about the human condition, is describing something about our understanding of how the mind works, what goes on, how we, how we experience life, and a deepening understanding of the simplicity of what seems very complicated our lives.
Jonathan:And it's a simplifying of that process of understanding how our lives are playing out.
Jonathan:And that's probably is much as I wanna go into in a short call because it kind of, it's a deep, it's a deep conversation, but there's a simplicity to it.
Jonathan:Um, and, and when we, when we get a bit of a sense of what's actually going on in the human condition, things start to simplify for us.
Jonathan:And in that simplicity, what becomes a, what's a priority shift as well?
Jonathan:Priorities start to change, and we can see that it's not, we're not just here, if you like, as a business leader, to profit and grow.
Jonathan:We're here for something else, something more transformative.
Julia:And in that lovely space, there's a possibility.
Jonathan:Well, there's, there's so much possibility, isn't there?
Jonathan:The thing Julia, that seems so possible right now is this transition that we are making as a species, to having knowledge through AI through the collection of data that we have now, not being the thing we have to go after in the traditional way that we might have done.
Jonathan:So I can envisage.
Jonathan:The function of leadership, but generally in life, but certainly in leadership, that we are potentially in a place where we can be freed up from having to pursue knowledge.
Jonathan:Um, because it'll be there.
Jonathan:It's already there.
Jonathan:You know, take, take leadership development.
Jonathan:You don't need to go on a program, a course, to learn about leadership.
Jonathan:Just look it up.
Jonathan:It'll tell you everything you need to know on the net.
Jonathan:So it's not knowledge that we need.
Jonathan:It's accessing humanity.
Jonathan:It's accessing the quality of humanity that cannot be replicated or not for the visible future anyhow, by machines, by AI.
Jonathan:We need to access that part of humanity that's the interesting bit.
Jonathan:And that's the differentiator.
Jonathan:And any business who's interested in remaining competitive, I'm absolutely certain needs to access that in their leadership and that in their people, that quality that is not knowledge, it's something much more powerful.
Jonathan:It's, it's intuition it's capacity to create in a way which is non-linear.
Jonathan:It's in the, the capacity for insight and newness and possibility that comes about from this mystery of human, the human existence, which we can't really easily explain, but we ever go.
Julia:Well, it's that, it's the point about, you know, 10 human beings looking at the same item of data will have a number of different interpretations and insights and take different actions.
Julia:And then it's what that aligned to?
Julia:What is that service of?
Julia:What is that for?
Jonathan:Yeah.
Jonathan:Now you could ask GPT the same question.
Jonathan:It, it would give you 10 different responses, right?
Jonathan:But I, it's only gathering as far as I can see anyway, the, evidence that comes before it is not.
Jonathan:I mean, it might still create new ideas from it.
Jonathan:I dunno enough about it, by the way.
Jonathan:But it might create new ideas that are not yet in circulation as a result of looking at that data.
Jonathan:But the, there, there's something else that happens in the human condition that isn't just regurgitating data.
Jonathan:There's, um, insightful, lightbulby, ahay moments that come from the ether.
Julia:Well, there, the, the no thing that becomes something.
Jonathan:Beautiful.
Jonathan:I love that.
Julia:And we do it every day.
Julia:We do it every day.
Julia:It's such an ordinary human thing, to go from no idea to some idea.
Jonathan:Yes, and there's something also that is in the interaction between two people or more than two people.
Jonathan:The human element of connection that also I, I see as generating ideas that.
Jonathan:Can't just come about through data.
Jonathan:So, know, you sit five people in a room and speculate, wonder, consider what might be something happens in that central pool that isn't just a combination of five people's data gathering together.
Jonathan:It's, there's a, there's an energy that's created in its own right.
Jonathan:There's the power, there's where creativity really, really comes, comes to the fore.
Jonathan:Creativity is not something ex, it's exclusive.
Jonathan:It's not something that's just available to the creativity team, we all have the capacity to create, create because creation, creativity really is just simply new thought, isn't it?
Jonathan:I mean, there's nothing special about creativity, it's just having new thought.
Jonathan:And for me, the um, the learning process for leaders is to allow themselves and the people around them space for that new thought to occur as opposed to getting caught up in fixed ideas about how things should be done and who they are and what leadership is.
Jonathan:There's an expansiveness that comes about, but there's a freedom that comes about from understanding how the human mind works so that we're not endlessly caught up in it.
Jonathan:That's where creativity can happen in organisations.
Jonathan:And that's, that's the bit that I'm interested in working in.
Jonathan:And that's what thought intelligence is.
Jonathan:It's the understanding that allows that, that, that to happen.
Julia:Fantastic.
Julia:Well, Jonathan, where can people find out more about thought intelligence and you, and speak to if they want to?
Jonathan:Well, it would be lovely to speak to people, I love speaking to people.
Jonathan:but yes, on, on the website, there's a, I have a website which is Capital Hyphen Shift, two words, capital-shift.com, or I'm on LinkedIn.
Julia:And Jonathan, would you leave any advice to any leaders that might be listening in the last moments of our conversation?
Jonathan:Yeah, I, I, I would, and, and, I would just say really listen to what comes to mind for you and, if there's a sort of little nugget of, um, questioning around the way that you're leading or the fact you'd like to learn some more, have a look, get involved, you know, in the conversation around this fantastic subject of generative leadership.
Jonathan:I think it's a beautiful subject and it's an important one.
Jonathan:And if you can see the relationship between your organisation continuing to be successful and relevant in the next 10, 10, 15 years.
Jonathan:this is the place to look.
Julia:Well, thank you, Jonathan.
Julia:It's been wonderful spending time with you.
Julia:And, um, hopefully we'll have another conversation in the not too distant future.
Jonathan:It's been a great pleasure, Julia.
Jonathan:Thank you very much.
Julia:What a lovely conversation with Jonathan.
Julia:He's such a joy and I love that playfulness with which he sees things.
Julia:Things don't have to be fixed, we can play with them.
Julia:Three things that really struck me from our conversation were, one, are you really clear on your business purpose or the problem that you're trying to solve in the world?
Julia:And is it meaningful to you?
Julia:Do your, you and your team often stop and wonder together?
Julia:Do you wonder about what you're doing?
Julia:Do you wonder why you are doing it?
Julia:Do you get curious?
Julia:Do you look for insight together?
Julia:I wonder what might be possible if we did.
Julia:And I wonder what would be possible if we were all more tuned in to the true nature of the human experience and the simplicity of life in a seemingly complex world.
Julia:What would your priorities be and what would transform for you as a result?
Julia:If you've enjoyed this episode of Generative Leaders, please go ahead and share it with someone else, and you can do that at generativeleaders.co or on any podcast platform you choose.
Julia:I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Generative Leaders.
