Episode 29
How do you fix a broken system?
Systemic change may feel like a daunting challenging, but when we break it down into smaller parts using a purpose-led approach, it becomes achievable. Change needs persistence, allyship, and strategic thinking to drive it, but focusing on symptoms rather than root causes can blind us to meaningful solutions.
Dame Caroline Mason CBE is Chief Executive of the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation, an organisation that aims to improve quality of life, particularly for people who face social and economic disadvantages. Caroline has a background in financial services and has lead other organisations that provide money to charities and social enterprises.
In her conversation with Julia, Dame Caroline discusses the value of breaking down complex issues into manageable parts, the crucial role of persistence and strategic thinking in effecting change, and how focusing on outcomes – rather than personal gain – forms the essence of generative leadership.
Links
Transcript
Changing a system, any system, can seem incredibly daunting.
Julia:By breaking things down into smaller pieces and focusing on getting people alongside you, change is really possible.
Julia:My guest this week has been working with many of our broken systems, from the financial system to homelessness and everything in between to create better lives and outcomes for people.
Julia:I'm Julia Rebholz, welcome to Generative Leaders.
Caroline:My name's Caroline Mason.
Caroline:I'm the chief exec of a foundation called the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation.
Caroline:Uh, I started off my career in financial services but quite early on realized that I thought that money could be used better, for positive purposes.
Caroline:And so almost 20 years ago now I, I co-founded something called Investing for Good.
Caroline:Kind of trying to use the skills that I'd learned in the financial services space into how do you utilize capital and investment to create positive outcomes.
Caroline:I then went and I was the Deputy Chief Exec at Charity Bank, which is a very small retail bank, uh, sa almost like a savings and loans bank that only lent to charities and social enterprises.
Caroline:I then was involved in the setup of Big Society Capital, and now I am the chief exec at Esmée.
Caroline:And Esmée is a foundation that, was created in 1961 by Ian Fairbairn, who in fact was, was one of the first, uh, employees at M&G, and was a pioneer in setting up unit trusts in the, in the UK back in the 1930s.
Caroline:And he, his wife died in the war, so he, he left a small foundation for his wife, about 20 million.
Caroline:But he left his entire holding in M&G to that foundation.
Caroline:And when M&G was sold to Prudential in 1999, the foundation went from a small 20 million pound foundation to a almost a 700 million foundation.
Caroline:And now we've got an endowment of 1.3 billion.
Caroline:And our key areas of work are in our natural world.
Caroline:So we've been involved in the climate, environmental space, and food and farming, for example, for over 20 years.
Caroline:We've always been a social justice organization.
Caroline:So we've got something called Fairer Future, which focuses on, uh, migration, uh, gender justice and racial justice and also young people's justice.
Caroline:And then the third area that we work in is what we call creative confident communities, which is about regenerating communities to be more in control of, um, the decisions and the assets that they have in their communities.
Caroline:And it's the best job on the planet.
Caroline:It's absolutely fantastic, because we are not really accountable to anyone rather than our trustees, which gives us huge amounts of flexibility to take risks, to try new things, to, uh, do what other people can't really do.
Caroline:And we make the most of that.
Caroline:So, um.
Caroline:yes, we operate in areas of, I would say, market and policy failure.
Caroline:And we, if our, sort of like our theory of change, which is the new, everybody talks about now, is that, uh, fundamentally we fund, we think that these market failures are pretty fundamental.
Caroline:So we, we fund a lot of campaigning organizations, if you like, that are trying to shift those models, the old models that clearly are not working and put pressure on them.
Caroline:But then we're also at the bottom end, if you like, we're, kind of looking at, uh, new models, new practices, new solutions, uh, for the future.
Caroline:So as the old systems hopefully disappear or crumble, we're actually trying to find those that sort of fledgling.
Caroline:Future that might exist.
Julia:It's an incredible story, and I'd love to know what, what, what have you seen about generative leadership?
Julia:What does it mean to you?
Caroline:I would say it's not about you, dude.
Caroline:It's not.
Caroline:So it is, I always feel that, uh, if you're gonna be a truly generative or generous leader, it's not about you.
Caroline:And I think that's easier if you're a purpose-driven or organization.
Caroline:'cause actually, if you like the purpose or the outcomes are in the lead and you are there making sure that everything works towards those outcomes.
Caroline:You know, you build your team, you, you know, you outline your strategy, you work in partnership.
Caroline:It's all around achieving those outcomes.
Caroline:So in some ways it's easier, I think, in a purpose led organization to have that generative leadership.
Caroline:It, you know, reminds me a bit of sailing.
Caroline:So when you are sailing.
Caroline:the helm or the captain is always at the back of the boat.
Caroline:The crew is in front helping, but basically you are steering from the back.
Caroline:It's like a sheep dog, with rounding, making sure that every, you're keeping the flock going in the right direction.
Caroline:So for me it's, it's, you are there to facilitate, to collaborate.
Caroline:And the way it translates in terms of Esmée,.
Caroline:I always talk about it being, so we're very clear about our purpose, what it is that we're trying to achieve.
Caroline:We're really, really clear about our privilege.
Caroline:And so the idea is that we use every single tool in our toolbox.
Caroline:Not just money, but our voice, our ability to convene, our ability to commission research.
Caroline:Uh, our ability to take risks, to have a long-term view.
Caroline:All of those things are part of our privilege.
Caroline:So we're very aware of that.
Caroline:And the third thing is that we absolutely know our place so that these issues that we're facing, no one is ever, there's no one sector or no one organization that is gonna solve this.
Caroline:So we have this, this concept of never doing anything on our own.
Caroline:Understand that we are just a, a, a small bit in all of this.
Caroline:And what's important for us is to find the bit that we can do that other people can't.
Caroline:And we are absolutely not about attribution.
Caroline:We're all about contribution.
Caroline:So how are we contributing to this?
Caroline:So that leads and that kind of slightly low ego, again, this is not about Esmée, this is not about us, this is about absolutely having as much impact as we possibly can.
Caroline:And we work with cross sector.
Caroline:So we call them unusual alliances to say, we've gotta be the, some of our parts, it's like a mosaic, if you like, that we are all, you be the sea, I'll be the.
Caroline:I'll be the terracotta plants or whatever, but basically we all need to work together to form this picture of the future of what it's gonna be like, and, and where, where our contribution is specifically, rather than trying to do everything.
Caroline:So for me, that's hugely liberating as a generative leader, because I'm not having to say.
Caroline:To my trustees, This is the bit that is attributable to us.
Caroline:They really understand that actually, there's lots of things at play here and our contribution is X, Y, and Z.
Julia:And, and how do you, obviously your Esmée, and the people in the organization of Esmée are showing up.
Julia:Without that ego of wanting to get the credit for staff.
Julia:How do you work with others that don't have that orientation?
Caroline:So what I would say is that if they are going to help deliver the impact, we do two things.
Caroline:One is we help make sure that in any initiative, we call it putting impact on the table.
Caroline:So that is our role, especially if we're working cross partnership and making sure that that is what people get the money for.
Caroline:That's where they get our money for is to put impact on the table.
Caroline:And otherwise we won't, we won't engage.
Caroline:So that's one way of doing it.
Caroline:The other way is honestly, people want to take credit for it.
Caroline:That's fine, as long as it happens.
Caroline:You know what I mean?
Caroline:I mean there are so many organizations that, around that, that, or initiatives that would not exist if it wasn't for Esmée funding or right at the beginning.
Caroline:Do people know that?
Caroline:Absolutely not.
Caroline:Does that matter?
Caroline:Not really.
Caroline:No, it doesn't, because actually what happened as a result is something much, much greater than we could ever, ever had imagined and involved lots of different people.
Julia:I love that, Caroline.
Julia:'cause it's, it's so interesting.
Julia:You know, we've talked, I've talked, we've talked a lot on this, on this podcast about ego and, everyone has one.
Julia:You can't get away from it.
Julia:The ego of I being, being identified with not shouting about it is obviously the polar opposite of shouting about it.
Julia:And so it is, it's much more about how do you get the best out of human beings and how do you really draw out of them to get the best result for society, the environment et cetera?
Julia:So what, what have you learned about, about that?
Caroline:I describe it as absolutely everybody has a thread of gold in them Sometimes that's really easy to find.
Caroline:And you go, yep, okay.
Caroline:And then you mine, you know, you absolutely have got that.
Caroline:In other people.
Caroline:It's there, but it's, it's not quite there or it's, it's just very thin.
Caroline:But that's okay because there's something there that you can work with.
Caroline:And so I always look for that, for that thread of gold.
Caroline:Or the other way that I think about it is to, to think about it in terms of sometimes there's a sort of, if you have a pie, sometimes you have to look really, you have a tiny sliver of the pie, but that's the thing that you focus on.
Caroline:You don't focus on all the rest, the rest of it that isn't, that isn't relevant.
Caroline:And sometimes people are the whole pie, you go, great.
Caroline:And sometimes they're just a small sliver.
Caroline:But that, that will contribute something.
Julia:And would you say that in the main people are fundamentally good, they wanna do the right thing, but it just gets covered up with a load of stuff?
Caroline:Yeah, and I mean, I've had to deal with people who are, who effectively, if you think about it, the legacy that they've left behind is completely toxic.
Caroline:Totally toxic.
Caroline:It's extractive, exploitative, it's led us to where we are now.
Caroline:But they've spent the last 50 years of their lives, 60 years of life working at, at this thing, which they're now being told is completely and utterly toxic.
Caroline:Now, it takes a really brave person to acknowledge that, and to say, yeah, absolutely right.
Caroline:I was wrong.
Caroline:Yeah.
Caroline:My legacy is absolutely terrible.
Caroline:So for me, I would rather attach focus on their expertise and say The world is changing.
Caroline:It looks different, but there are huge opportunities for this kind of expertise to adapt and change and deliver for the future, something positive, so that not everything I've done is completely awful.
Caroline:And I think focusing on what people, again, what people can contribute, even though it's a little tiny bit, So, yeah, so I, I, I, I think that for me is the way to do it.
Caroline:In the main, I think people are good and do want things to improve for their families, for their children, for their friends.
Caroline:You know, you have to start from that, from that fundamental belief.
Caroline:And often, barriers and norms and cultures get in the way of that, but they are surmountable.
Julia:When you come across somebody that's really entrenched in a view, and you see something different, how, how do you deal with that?
Caroline:So I believe in sort of gentle persistence, positive determination, allyship, finding people who do agree with you and make sure that you've got that support so that you, you know, you don't wake up in the middle of the night of the night going, is it me?
Caroline:Am I wrong?
Caroline:Am I completely mad to be thinking this?
Caroline:So having that kind of ally allyship.
Caroline:Also just to try and understand why people think that way.
Caroline:Why do people think so fundamentally different from, from me and to listen and to try and really understand that, to then flip it, as I said before, flip it into something positive.
Caroline:And then finally I have learned that it's tactics, tactics, tactics, tactics.
Caroline:So, when something's, when there's a barrier in your way, you just find a different way around it.
Caroline:And, uh.
Caroline:Again, thinking about sailing, I'm a dinghy sailor, so it's like, you know where you're going, but you've got all these obstacles in the way.
Caroline:So you're sort of having to navigate your way through, through all of these obstacles.
Caroline:And I remember when I first started at Esmée, we had no, we had nothing in our, in terms of our endowment.
Caroline:We didn't even have exclusions.
Caroline:I like, it was like two completely separate organizations.
Caroline:And when I wrote my first five year plan, I naturally included the, the endowment as part of it and said, this needs to transition, blah, blah, blah.
Caroline:And I was categorically told no.
Caroline:Absolutely told out of, out, out of scope completely.
Caroline:And I remember my chair at the time saying, Caroline, I do hope you're not too disappointed by that.
Caroline:It was the only thing I didn't get.
Caroline:And I said, no, no, you know, it's fine.
Caroline:You win some, you lose some.
Caroline:But just to let you know, I am not giving up on this.
Caroline:Just giving you a heads up here that this is really, really, really important and I am not gonna give up on this.
Caroline:And I didn't, I just very kind of persist.
Caroline:Just started doing different little things, raising awareness here, popping things into board papers and, all sorts of things.
Caroline:Inviting my chair to certain things.
Caroline:And so I, I think that's a persistence determination, but lots of tactics
Julia:Well, and it's also not expecting to happen overnight.
Caroline:Exactly.
Caroline:I mean, somebody once said to me, you know, culture eats process for breakfast and it does, cultures run very, very, very deep and so do norms.
Caroline:So it has to take time to, to really last to be really lasting.
Julia:Do you think that that's something that younger leaders struggle with more in terms of the time it takes for real systemic change to happen?
Caroline:Yes, I do.
Caroline:I think a good thing is that there are lots of activists around, lots of social entrepreneurs and that's fantastic.
Caroline:But I do feel that there is this impatience, rightly so.
Caroline:But the danger of that is that a lot of the issues that we're dealing with are incredibly complex, in fact.
Caroline:So the idea that there are these silver bullets that are gonna turn up and solve climate change or, health issues, that's, all of these things are interconnected, whether it's health, climate, poverty.
Caroline:So I, I feel that, there is a danger that.
Caroline:We go in some ways too far and make things very complicated, rather than doubling down on something that's quite simple and defective.
Caroline:A lot of the work that we do doesn't actually cost very much money.
Caroline:It's not highly complicated.
Caroline:A lot of it is built on expertise and trust.
Caroline:And it is more, talk about democratic, but it, it, it's basically using people as an asset and saying that actually ordinary people do have a lot of these answers and do know what they need and want.
Caroline:And so how do you make sure that those voices are actually centered?
Caroline:And not just young people's voices, that's the other thing.
Caroline:People who have, families who have a mortgage or want to buy a house or, you know, are struggling with the educational system because their children aren't doing well.
Caroline:And I, I feel that listening, again, coming back to listening to those voices and making sure that they are core to how we design things for the future.
Caroline:It might take a bit longer, but actually it comes out better because it's absolutely grounded in what people say they need and want rather than a kind of done to them.
Caroline:You know, I always have the example of Middlesborough where they, I dunno how many hundreds of millions they spend on building an airport in Middlesborough, which 95% of the population can't even use, can't afford it, can't use it, and where would they go?
Caroline:And would never have said, oh yes, that's a really good, good amount of money to be that.
Caroline:That's exactly where we would want.
Caroline:Hundreds of millions of pounds to go to in Middlesborough.
Caroline:They would've given a very, very different set of criteria, which probably would've cost a lot less and been much more impactful.
Caroline:But then on the other hand, I sometimes go to some events where I just go, oh my God, we've, we've been having the same conversation with the same people for 10 years now.
Caroline:I think we all need to move on, frankly.
Caroline:In fact, it was one of those just the other day.
Julia:Such a balance, isn't it?
Julia:Because it's like you say these big, you know, systemic systems were created by very few individuals for the benefit of very few individuals, and now we've lived with those systems for a long period of time, and there's all these unintended consequences that weren't foreseen when they were first designed with the number of people that are now living on the planet.
Julia:All of this context has changed, but undoing those deeply grain ingrained ways of doing things, you know, sort of the collective group goes, yeah, but I can't change that.
Julia:And the point is, yes, I cannot, but we could.
Caroline:Yeah, I, I completely, so that's why there's a sort of this idea of always doing things in partnership, a collaborative model, not a competitive model.
Caroline:And it's really hard to change that.
Caroline:So I come back to expertise, so I can always re remember an impact investor coming to Esmée around an investment model around care homes for the elderly.
Caroline:And, my esteemed colleague, was part of that discussion and knows a lot about old people and old, people outcomes.
Caroline:And she said, yeah, but the thing is the old people achieve better outcomes the longer they stay in their home with support.
Caroline:So actually what, rather than investing 300 million in building care homes for the elderly, actually having community nurses in communities is a much cheaper and actually more impactful in terms of older people.
Caroline:And of course it didn't quite fit the sort of impact model of.
Caroline:Assets returns quickly.
Caroline:And then the other thing I've always remember is, uh, this is more in the charity world, I suppose, but but also in the impact world, that if you're trying to solve a problem, coming back to homelessness, there's an inbuilt obsolescence in the model.
Caroline:' cause actually you don't want more homeless people.
Caroline:You don't wanna grow the homelessness market at all.
Caroline:You want it to in 15 years not to exist so your product is not, is not useful then it's not, it's not relevant.
Caroline:And I think that's another norm that I think people find really difficult, that if you're trying to basically say these things should not exist, whereas the mantra is always, let's scale it.
Caroline:Let's grow it.
Caroline:Maybe, maybe, maybe we don't want more violence against women, possibly, you know?
Caroline:We're trying to stop these things from happening.
Caroline:We want them to disappear.
Caroline:So that idea of of a, of an investment model, which has got a built in obsolescence, doesn't, doesn't sit well.
Julia:Well.
Julia:I guess it's, any problem that you're trying to solve.
Julia:You know, if you solve the problem, then.
Julia:You wouldn't exist.
Julia:But most people are potentially creating businesses to mediate the problem or cure some of the symptoms of the problem, not actually solve the problem.
Julia:And I think that's a really interesting point of difference that leaders can start to look at in terms of, are we, are we really solving this problem or are we just solving the symptoms of the problem?
Caroline:so an example of that, I won't say which consultancy it was, but one of the big consultancies was giving a presentation on the root causes of financial exclusion.
Caroline:And the reasons they had was a lack of a bank account, lack of credit, ratings, and, no assets.
Julia:Which sound all logical and plausible
Caroline:But they're all symptoms.
Caroline:They're all symptoms.
Caroline:And I said, these are all symptoms of the problem.
Caroline:The reason why.
Caroline:People are financially excluded.
Caroline:It is 'cause they either, it's not 'cause they're feckless or stupid, it's because they either don't earn enough or there's a benefits and support system that is punitive, rather than supportive.
Caroline:So unless we are tackling these things, we are never gonna solve the problem, ' Cause those people will never be able to afford a bank account.
Caroline:They'll never be able to get a credit rating.
Caroline:So, so it was to do with kind of how can corporates help?
Caroline:And I said the first thing corporates can do is to pay the living wage throughout their supply, the real living wage throughout their supply chains,
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:And not having to have their employees top up their income with universal credit.
Caroline:Exactly.
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:So would that be one of your advice that you would give to anybody that is starting a business, running a business, is actually look at the fundamentals of the problem that you're actually trying to solve?
Caroline:Of course.
Caroline:Yes, of course.
Caroline:And how, and, and then how does your, your impact help to, solve that?
Caroline:So, if you look at something like regenerative agriculture, that idea that you have got to fundamentally understand why it is that your method of farming is causing the problems, allows you to then say, right, so my transition is going to be like this, and you can then get the right kind of financing and investment in order to make that transition, rather than saying.
Caroline:I'm gonna do these few bits and pieces here, which don't actually solve the problem.
Julia:Well, it's that, it's that also that contentment with, I, I can just be a bit better rather than actually solving the problem.
Julia:And we need both, right?
Julia:We need people that are, being a bit better.
Julia:But then we also need to really look at, well, how do we actually solve this problem and what are the fundamentals?
Julia:And and I, I had a chat with Kresse Wessling a few weeks ago and, you know, she's so inspirational on that, well, what is, what is the actual problem that we're actually trying to solve?
Julia:Not just the symptoms of it.
Caroline:yeah.
Caroline:No, and, and um, it's very interesting.
Caroline:So one of the, that people find that very hard to articulate.
Caroline:So one of the questions I always ask, you know, how does the world look different, better, and different as a result of this five year funding we're about to give?
Caroline:You, doesn't have to be a, but just, I know three things that that will mean the, that the world is in a better place as a result of this.
Caroline:And is it extraordinary how many people cannot answer that, so for me that's a very good indicator of sort of whether the organization is an ameliorator, which we do need, there's no question.
Caroline:Or whether it's a change organization.
Caroline:For example, food banks are mediaing a problem that shouldn't exist.
Caroline:So the question is, why is it that people are having to use, food banks to feed their children in a country, in the 21st century, like the UK, which is incredibly affluent in fact.
Caroline:And that is all about poverty.
Caroline:So the fact that we, you absolutely need food banks, of course you do, because otherwise they'd have nowhere to go.
Caroline:But you also need the campaigns to change things like the, the real living wage work.
Caroline:And you also need changes to the way food is made and structured.
Caroline:So looking at the future of how food is, made, healthy food is made, so that people not only have enough money to eat well, they also have the money and there is availability of healthy, affordable food.
Caroline:So you're kind of working across that spectrum all the way from the root cause, the kind of need for amelioration here in the middle or the, and then looking forward in terms of, well, what does it, what does the future system need to look like and how do we get there?
Caroline:So I think all of those are valid.
Caroline:So we feel that our, our work is in the, the left and the right, not in the middle, but there are lots of people who do great stuff in the middle and we, we feel that if we all try and do everything, we'll get nowhere.
Caroline:So, so it'll be kind of like, you know, what's the, the, the lowest common denominator, whereas if we each play to our strengths, coming back to that unusual alliance work, then there's more chance of actually getting to the system change.
Julia:And I feel like that is a great place to leave our conversation.
Julia:But before we do, where can people find out, Uh, more about Esmée, more about you and your work if they would like to?
Caroline:Uh, well, we have a very, very good website, which, uh, thanks to my fantastic team and that is quite a, it's a very straightforward site that tells you what we do and how we do it and why we do it.
Julia:esméefairbairn.org.uk.
Julia::::: I always find myself enraptured and moved by Caroline.
Julia:There's something in the way that she speaks that is so inspiring, yet so humble, so challenging, yet simple.
Julia:And I think that's what makes her such a great leader and I feel very privileged to have had that conversation with her.
Julia:The things that have really stuck with me since our conversation are, are you really solving a problem?
Julia:So many of us working to change systems think that we're solving a problem, but when we actually get down to it, we are solving the symptoms of a problem.
Julia:And that needs to be done.
Julia:As Caroline said, in the very eloquent way, she described ameliorating a problem.
Julia:And that work does need to be done because there are things falling apart and symptoms that need to be fixed.
Julia:But the real change happens when we actually solve the problem.
Julia:It can take years, decades, but if we stay laser focused on it, then it really might be possible.
Julia:Who are the people that may disagree with your views, but would help you broaden your perspectives?
Julia:This is one I find challenging yet exciting to go and sit with people that really disagree and be able to hold my own judgment to listen for long enough to see what might be revealed in that conversation.
Julia:I wonder what would happen if we all tried that.
Julia:And then the third is really around who are your allies?
Julia:Who are the people that keep you energized?
Julia:Who are the ones that keep your integrity in place?
Julia:Who are the ones that really challenge and inspire you?
Julia:I hope that you've all got people like that in your life, and if you don't, then I really recommend that you seek them out ' cause they're invaluable.
Julia:I hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if you have, please go ahead and share it with someone else that you think may benefit from it.
Julia:You can do that at generativeleaders.co or on any podcast platform that you use.
Julia:I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Generative Leaders.
