The surprising power of not believing everything you feel

Julia: 00:00:00

Welcome to Generative Leaders.

Julia: 00:00:02

If you've ever wanted to know how to take the seed of an idea and turn it into something, then this is the episode for you.

Julia: 00:00:12

This week I'm in conversation with Anna Debenham, the founder of Insight Alliance, who is working with incarcerated individuals in prison and helping them turn their lives around.

Julia: 00:00:25

Welcome Anna.

Anna: 00:00:31

I am in Portland, Oregon.

Anna: 00:00:34

I founded an organization called the Insight Alliance back in 2016.

Anna: 00:00:39

I'm now one of the directors, I'm a program director.

Anna: 00:00:41

We, well originally started by running programs in prison, Insight to Wellbeing three principles, programs in prison.

Anna: 00:00:50

Getting people to understand their own minds.

Anna: 00:00:52

And the programs kind of, we started in a men's pro men's prison.

Anna: 00:00:57

And then, you know, I always thought that it was something that I was gonna just do on the side, and I was gonna make money other places.

Anna: 00:01:01

And, you know, I didn't think it, I didn't think it was a viable way to, to have su sustainable income, you know, so I just always thought that this is gonna be a side project that I loved.

Anna: 00:01:09

But we, I started in prison.

Anna: 00:01:11

Yeah, I started in a men's prison and then, Got an opportunity to work in the women's prison where we actually started a research project with Pacific University.

Anna: 00:01:20

One of the, the kind of the head of the psychology department in the prison was like, you know, if this, if you want this to be more than a volunteer program, like you, you need to get it researched.

Anna: 00:01:27

And it wasn't something that I'd thought of.

Anna: 00:01:28

It wasn't something that I considered.

Anna: 00:01:30

I'm not a researcher.

Anna: 00:01:31

That's totally not my thing and found an amazing PhD professor, Dr.

Anna: 00:01:36

Sarah Bowen, who worked at Pacific University as and worked, did a lot of research with mindfulness and, and addiction and, and things.

Anna: 00:01:43

And she got really interested in this.

Anna: 00:01:44

And so we've been doing that project for actually way too long.

Anna: 00:01:47

Because of Covid it just took us forever.

Anna: 00:01:49

then at the same time, you know, working in the men's prison, You know, you would be in group and men and men would say, look, why didn't we learn this when we were younger?

Anna: 00:01:55

Like, if I knew this when I was a kid, like I wouldn't be in prison.

Anna: 00:01:58

Like, the why, why aren't you working with youth?

Anna: 00:02:01

You know?

Anna: 00:02:01

And then it was like, huh, okay.

Anna: 00:02:03

So then like serendipity had it and we found ways to get into the youth prison.

Anna: 00:02:07

And then we started working with youth and, and then that kind of expanded.

Anna: 00:02:11

And then, alongside, doing the programs, I also realized that, you know, we need kind of wraparound services because it, it's all very well kind of understanding your own mind, but you also really need somewhere to live and you need to kind of employment and you, you know, people wanna go back to school and there's other things that people need.

Anna: 00:02:28

So I do a lot of, you know, trying to kind of connect with other organizations and, and make sure that people had things that they need when they got out of prison.

Anna: 00:02:35

And, and then we got to a point where, you know, I was writing grants and I was, you know, doing different things to try and, make this whole thing work.

Anna: 00:02:41

And got to a point with, with our board chair, who is a good friend of mine now, Rob Tannenbaum that then we could hire a operations director.

Anna: 00:02:48

So, you know, we hired uh, Lindsay Jensen who is the most amazing human when it comes to like a lot of things not least nonprofit kind of finance management strategy.

Anna: 00:02:58

She's just like a, a nonprofit rockstar.

Anna: 00:03:00

So I, I feel like I totally landed on my feet and the two of us just really kind of gelled in terms of working together.

Anna: 00:03:06

And, you know, we're now an organization of 12 employees.

Anna: 00:03:10

We're about to hire three more people.

Anna: 00:03:12

And we've got Project 180, which is our reentry services.

Anna: 00:03:16

And we have, you know, Insight to Wellbeing, which is, I have a team of four.

Anna: 00:03:20

We work a lot with, different, not just prison.

Anna: 00:03:22

I think that, you know, when that started we connected with community organizations to, to to help people in various different ways and, and get them employed and do all the things that, that would be helpful.

Anna: 00:03:33

And then a lot of people who would listen to our program would think Well, our team needs this too.

Anna: 00:03:38

Like can we, can we, can we get this, like, can we do this Insight to Wellbeing training?

Anna: 00:03:42

So then we ended up working with our system partners and our community partners and people who were working with people that had, you know, experienced incarceration or working with people who experienced addiction or, you know, all, all the things.

Anna: 00:03:53

And so then what we actually do is much bigger now than just working with people who've been impacted by the carceral system.

Anna: 00:04:01

It's kind of taken on a life of its own and I feel like I'm just along for the ride.

Julia: 00:04:06

So Anna, kind of take us back to that moment when, you know what is now a 12 person organization and is doing all of this fantastic, amazing work, that idea just came to you and you were like, well, this makes sense.

Julia: 00:04:22

I'm gonna do this.

Julia: 00:04:23

What, what sort of happened in you for that to happen?

Anna: 00:04:27

Well, it was actually, I mean, there was, it was really the beginning of it was actually one very, very clear insight.

Anna: 00:04:33

Like it's one of those insights, like, yeah, that is that it.

Anna: 00:04:35

But it actually was, was that insight that really landed on a, on a, on a very kind of deep level for me.

Anna: 00:04:41

So I came back to, I came, I'd come back to America.

Anna: 00:04:43

I'd been working with Jacqueline Hollows Beyond Recovery in England, you know, working in prison.

Anna: 00:04:48

And I loved it.

Anna: 00:04:48

I just loved, for whatever reason I felt at home Working with that population, you know, and, and I wanted to continue.

Anna: 00:04:55

But it also like where, we also wanted to move back to the states.

Anna: 00:04:58

And I, I had a lot of um, you know, thinking about what I should be doing and why did I, was it the right thing to do to leave?

Anna: 00:05:05

And I was just getting started with all these things and, like, how am I gonna do this?

Anna: 00:05:09

Cause I really need to make it work.

Anna: 00:05:11

And, and, and I'd really sort of put a lot of weight on my, on myself, around what it needed to look like and how on earth am I gonna start working in prison?

Anna: 00:05:17

I have no idea.

Anna: 00:05:18

I have nothing.

Anna: 00:05:19

I have no thought around what I could do.

Anna: 00:05:23

And I got into a little bit of an insecure space of going, I'm, you know, I was sort of inadvertently outsourcing my wellbeing.

Anna: 00:05:30

You know, I was thinking that my worth and my value, you know, is very much tied to how successful I was gonna be on the outside.

Anna: 00:05:36

And I'm taking this thing and I left England, I'm gonna do.

Anna: 00:05:39

And then I had a, I had a, a, like I was, I remember so clearly there was a, like a really very clear voice of, you know, there's nothing in the world that can make you any more whole than you already are.

Anna: 00:05:51

And that then led to a thought of you, you don't need to do any of this.

Anna: 00:05:56

You could go work in a coffee shop.

Anna: 00:05:58

Oh my God.

Anna: 00:05:58

The relief I felt in my body of all the.

Anna: 00:06:02

Everything fell off.

Anna: 00:06:03

Like all the thinking fell off like I needed to do anything that was gonna make me something that was gonna make me more whole, or was gonna make me look better, or was gonna make me do better or was gonna something.

Anna: 00:06:14

All that in that moment, for whatever reason, just fell away.

Anna: 00:06:17

And the idea of working in a coffee shop because that was enough, that was enough.

Anna: 00:06:22

There was nothing else that I needed to do.

Anna: 00:06:24

And of course in that moment when a whole bunch of thinking fell away, like I got a creative idea.

Anna: 00:06:30

And the creative idea was so ridiculous cuz it was like, oh, you could put out on Facebook, does anyone know anyone who's ever worked in prison?

Anna: 00:06:37

That was, that was like, you'd think that that was a really baseline, kind of what you do.

Anna: 00:06:41

And I couldn't even come up with that.

Anna: 00:06:42

I had so much noise in my head.

Anna: 00:06:43

And so I did, I put out to someone, someone got back to and said, oh yeah, I know so-and-so who worked and used to work, volunteer in prison.

Anna: 00:06:48

I had a conversation with them and then I had a conversation with somebody else, and I had a conversation with somebody else.

Anna: 00:06:53

But the difference was I had nothing on any of it because none of it was about me.

Anna: 00:06:59

And so it, it almost like I'd taken Anna out of the mix where it was just like, may say yes, and they may say no, but that's okay.

Anna: 00:07:05

You know, this may go well and it may not go well, that's okay.

Anna: 00:07:08

It, it doesn't mean anything about me, or how well I showed up to the meeting, or how well I explained what I wanted to do or how well I was gonna do this, that, and the other, you know?

Anna: 00:07:17

And, and so it, it, I didn't feel like I was on the line.

Anna: 00:07:19

And I think before there was so much weight, and like Anna, I, I, I'm on the line here that I need to say all this in a particular way that people need to understand it, so then they're gonna get what I'm doing.

Anna: 00:07:29

So they're gonna go, yes, come in.

Anna: 00:07:31

And I was like, that's all made up.

Anna: 00:07:32

Like all of that was made up.

Anna: 00:07:34

And then when I just showed up and just from a clear mind, you know, just started talking about what I wanted to do, people felt it, it was a different sort of feeling.

Anna: 00:07:43

There was you, it is kind of, you're not listening to the actual, cause I wasn't sharing a curriculum at this point.

Anna: 00:07:48

I wasn't kind of giving them like, you know, lessons one through 10.

Anna: 00:07:50

I was just sharing a feeling of what this is.

Anna: 00:07:53

And it was like, it felt good.

Anna: 00:07:54

And it's like, oh yeah, that's, let's try it.

Anna: 00:07:56

And I was like, we could just do a pilot.

Anna: 00:07:58

Well let's do a pilot and if it works, and I knew, I knew that one, once we did a pilot and people saw something, it was gonna spread because I just know that's, you know, when something wakes up inside someone, they wanna share it.

Anna: 00:08:11

And, and that's what happened in the men's prison.

Anna: 00:08:13

We started off with a first group of six and before Covid shut down, we had like waiting lists and three groups going, you know, simultaneously.

Anna: 00:08:20

And then we had three groups going in the women's prison.

Anna: 00:08:22

We had groups going in the, you know what youth prison and.

Anna: 00:08:26

Because people wanna wake.

Anna: 00:08:28

And so when people see the truth or they hear truth and something changes inside of them, that has nothing to do with me.

Anna: 00:08:32

So I didn't think that I needed to grow anything or do anything.

Anna: 00:08:35

It was just gonna do it by itself.

Anna: 00:08:37

And so it was just getting in the door.

Anna: 00:08:39

But it came really from that one insight.

Anna: 00:08:41

And, and I, I stopped putting my worth and value on anything outside of me.

Anna: 00:08:45

And none of it really mattered in a, in a, in a, in a good way.

Anna: 00:08:49

Not, not if it mattered, like, so.

Anna: 00:08:50

I don't care it just, wasn't on the line and, and when you're not on the line or when I wasn't on the line, it made it much more fun.

Julia: 00:08:57

I'm imagining of course, that many of our listeners, they've had an idea that's come to them.

Julia: 00:09:04

They've had, you know, Something tapped them on the shoulder saying, go create this.

Julia: 00:09:10

And that, pressure that you can put on yourself to go and create the thing, the idea, the something that you've been really moved by and really tapped on the shoulder by that I think, you know, what you've just shared around that is it my self worth?

Julia: 00:09:26

Is it my thing?

Julia: 00:09:28

Is it my thing to do?

Julia: 00:09:30

Or is it just something I'm exploring?

Julia: 00:09:32

And seeing what happens next and seeing what unfolds next?

Julia: 00:09:36

To me that's sort of the difference between a leader and a generative leader.

Julia: 00:09:41

You know, and that's what this podcast is all about, is exploring that difference.

Julia: 00:09:46

in leadership.

Julia: 00:09:47

And so I'd love to hear your take on generative leadership and sort of what you've seen about that in your own, in your own journey.

Anna: 00:09:55

I'd say to me generative leadership is, is something that evolves naturally and organically, and it's sustainable.

Anna: 00:10:05

And so when it, as it's sustainable, it's kind of regenerative because it, it generates thing, it gen, it keeps generating it, it's created in a way where it creates a container for regeneration or space or, or, or, you know, things to evolve and to grow.

Anna: 00:10:21

The way my mind works is very much kind of, I'm doing the next thing in front of me, and then we'll just see what happens and we'll see what happens.

Anna: 00:10:27

And what I love about, you know, when Lindsay came on was that she's very much kind of strategy, she's very much kind of looking ahead and that my brain just doesn't, I can't imagine ahead.

Anna: 00:10:37

Like, it just, I can think and when she says it, I go, oh yeah, that sounds good.

Anna: 00:10:41

That sounds good.

Anna: 00:10:41

But then it's like, okay, what am I doing right now, you know?

Anna: 00:10:44

But what I love and the way that that, that this has kind of evolved is like having a plan and holding it light lightly.

Anna: 00:10:50

You know, being a generative leader feels like we're constantly open to possibilities and open to what's fresh and what we're seeing and where, where something wants to take us.

Anna: 00:11:02

And then kind of getting curious about it.

Anna: 00:11:05

it's not like we're just kind of blowing in the wind and we're like, oh yeah, that sounds, you know, because it's very much, now there's a direction and we're like, how, where do we wanna grow and where do we wanna develop?

Anna: 00:11:14

And is this good for our organization?

Anna: 00:11:16

But doing it in a way, and something that I've been really clear on right from the beginning and where it's ha easier in a way to have tough conversations is see, seeing the Insight Alliance as like a, as an organism.

Anna: 00:11:28

It's like, it, it's its own being and what, what, what is good for the health of this organization?

Anna: 00:11:34

And sometimes like what Anna thinks isn't for the health of the organization.

Anna: 00:11:38

And, and it's not because it's not about me.

Anna: 00:11:40

It's like this organization is really helping people and it's really allowing people to get outta the prison of their own mind, get out of prison physically, and, and recognize that there's a different way to live and they can, they're seeing the condition thinking that then they can kind of blow right, right through and, and, and then live a very, very different life.

Anna: 00:11:59

But it's so helpful to, to be in a, a space within that in the organization to get curious about where, where does this wanna flow?

Anna: 00:12:07

Like how does it wanna move?

Anna: 00:12:08

Where do we want to go next?

Anna: 00:12:10

But knowing that If we have a plan and it, and it just doesn't work out, then that's fine.

Anna: 00:12:16

We're just, there's always something else.

Anna: 00:12:17

And so to me, it, it, it's like we are always stretching ourselves, but we're not stretching ourselves beyond what's possible, you know?

Anna: 00:12:25

So we are never, I don't ever feel in a place where, where I'm feeling stressed or anxious or whatever, that just doesn't occur to me because I'm, I know that what's what we have.

Anna: 00:12:34

You know, I listen to my body in kind of how it feels.

Anna: 00:12:38

And it doesn't mean I don't kind of get overwhelmed occasionally, or I don't feel anxious about things that are coming up.

Anna: 00:12:44

but there's a, a, a space of feeling stretched, but not pushing ourselves beyond what's possible because then, because we work with humans, we need to be present with the humans that we're working with.

Anna: 00:12:56

And if I'm spread too thin and I can't pick up a phone call of someone's having a fuck it moment or needs support in that mo.

Anna: 00:13:04

And it could be the first time they're in a supermarket for 20 years and there's like a whole is of bread and they dunno what to choose cuz they've never had to make that kind of decision.

Anna: 00:13:11

And that's like massive.

Anna: 00:13:13

And it makes the difference between like, fuck it moments when you f like there can be, and that's just a small little example, right?

Anna: 00:13:19

Because there's all sorts of different things that come up with people.

Anna: 00:13:23

But we are a very human centered organization and so humans are always gonna come first.

Anna: 00:13:29

And if I'm in my head worrying about what, what, what's happening or what, how we're working as an organization, I'm not present to, to my team.

Anna: 00:13:36

I'm not present to the people we're working with.

Anna: 00:13:38

I'm not present to my own self of, of like recognizing where I'm at and you know, creating boundaries too about, you know, what time I don't pick up the phone at night, you know, which has now changed, you know, cause he used to be Anna hotline, which is open all hours.

Anna: 00:13:52

But now, you know, with the conversation, my husband, it's like, we have a team now that does different things and I don't have to do that stuff.

Anna: 00:13:58

But we are always at a point of stretching, but we're, it's a lasted, it's like a really kind of, it's like a natural kind of flow of like elasticity and, and going where, going where it feels right, but also not being attached to, to something.

Anna: 00:14:10

And if it does something, you know, we can also do a u-turn.

Anna: 00:14:12

Like that's okay too.

Anna: 00:14:13

It doesn't mean anything about us, it doesn't mean anything about the organization, but with the organization at the, at the center, it's a grower, it needs food and it needs water, and it needs love, and it needs attention.

Anna: 00:14:24

And he's loving, it leaves attention.

Anna: 00:14:24

And, and what, what, what can we do in service of this organization that allows it to grow and then help more people?

Julia: 00:14:30

You know, I see so many leaders getting so caught up in, there's no distance between them and their organization.

Julia: 00:14:36

And that's often where they get stuck.

Julia: 00:14:39

Because it's so intertwined with me and who I am and, and, and kind of getting so

Julia: 00:14:46

attached to that.

Julia: 00:14:47

So, what, what are, what are some of the insights that you've had about, kind of taking this from an idea when you were sitting in England, coming back to the US, putting a Facebook post out there, and then starting those conversations.

Anna: 00:15:03

I think one insight that continues to deepen is my relationship with my body.

Anna: 00:15:09

Not what it looks like aesthetically, because that's a whole different thing, but realizing that the only way that I can experience anything is through my body.

Anna: 00:15:22

That I cannot experience life anywhere else outside of this.

Anna: 00:15:26

This is the container for me to experience this, this existence.

Anna: 00:15:31

And, and getting more in tune with what the, the feeling that I'm living in.

Anna: 00:15:37

Or getting in tune with what feeling I'm following, but also noticing like when I'm in a conversation, you know, with maybe other team members or with leadership team or whatever, and I notice when I start to feel agitated or I start to feel my ego.

Anna: 00:15:52

It gives me so much information about where to take a step back or what to follow and what, where to shut up and, but where to come, maybe, you know, I need to have this conversation, but I'm, my body's telling me that it's not helpful right now for me to open my mouth cuz it's not gonna, it's gonna come out in a way that's not gonna be helpful.

Anna: 00:16:10

And I know I can say it differently, so I'm just gonna shut my mouth and let's sleep on it.

Anna: 00:16:14

But the more that happens, the more I can be in a meeting or be in a thing and say, yeah, I'm just where I'm at with you don't wanna know.

Anna: 00:16:21

I, you know, we just can be more open about how, how we're doing in, in, because all of us, you know, the one, the one thing that.

Anna: 00:16:28

In our organization, is it everyone, everyone comes, is has an intensive or comes to a 10 week program or gets different, has different ways of coming to this understanding and so where we're all coming from, it's like a, the board, all our peer mentors cuz we have a bunch of peer mentors that work with people that get out, everybody.

Anna: 00:16:44

Because we know that when people understand their own minds, when people understand what creates their experience in the moment, that's not coming from outside of them.

Anna: 00:16:54

It's coming from their own mind.

Anna: 00:16:55

And where they're, their state of mind in the the moment is then there's much less drama.

Anna: 00:17:01

Doesn't mean that drama doesn't happen, but we can come back to ourselves and come back to a feeling of, of peace and, and, and connection.

Anna: 00:17:11

And so I think for me, the biggest insight for me is really trusting the wisdom in my body.

Anna: 00:17:16

Because I, I, before bypass a feeling or I didn't like a feeling, and so I wanna feel different and I try and overcome it by doing more or, or, or, or jumping into something that felt like I needed to get something resolved.

Anna: 00:17:26

And so therefore I needed to really kind of like get my teeth in it.

Anna: 00:17:30

Or I needed to tell someone about themselves cuz they were being an asshole or whatever, you know?

Anna: 00:17:34

and I know that it looks all looks very different from different spectrums of my own mind and that the, I can see something one way and I can see something such a different way.

Anna: 00:17:42

And our body gives us such a beautiful examples of how we're just, we are just, I don't know, just get to experience life.

Anna: 00:17:49

And so it, it's been my greatest guide to, to kind of really notice what feeling am I following?

Anna: 00:17:57

What's helpful and what's what, what am I following?

Anna: 00:18:00

And what is there an urgency to this?

Anna: 00:18:01

If there's an urgency to this, it, it's like a time to kind of like take a breath..

Anna: 00:18:06

I think another insight of, of seeing deeper into.

Anna: 00:18:11

when, and I see this with people I see.

Anna: 00:18:12

So it's not just an insight for me.

Anna: 00:18:14

I feel like this is an insight that people see, and it can seem so like, oh yeah, it's all very well for you because you've got this, or you've had this or, or, it's all very well for you because you haven't had the trauma, that you haven't had the this and that and the other.

Anna: 00:18:26

But when people realize for themselves, so it's like an insight through my experience, but also insight.

Anna: 00:18:34

other people's experiences of when, and this is, and this is like a, nothing new.

Anna: 00:18:40

But when we truly get out of our own way, life wants to flow.

Anna: 00:18:45

And so when people realize that the only thing we're up against is our own mind, even if our outside circumstances like a awful, like not to, you know, we work with people who, life on life's terms, circumstances, you just couldn't make it up.

Anna: 00:19:01

But they still see that that how they're experiencing their own mind is gonna give them a completely different experience of the outside world and their relationship to their thoughts and feelings totally changes because of, in, in insights of, of, of how they're, they've been living in a sort of spin cycle that they'd been unable to get out of because they innocently were misunderstanding where their relief was coming from, or innocently misunderstanding where their wellbeing was coming from.

Anna: 00:19:31

They're innocently outsourcing their value or their worth to something outside of them.

Anna: 00:19:36

And that for me is huge, but I think it's more huge because I see it in people where you think Wow.

Anna: 00:19:44

I mean, my God, how they could get through that.

Anna: 00:19:46

I don't even know.

Anna: 00:19:47

Like that's just mind blowing what people can get through and how they can survive and how they can thrive.

Anna: 00:19:52

And they're seeing that, that, that it's their mind, that it's at play.

Anna: 00:19:56

So I think that's an insight that I get, you know, continue to see as people wake up to their own health and their own amazingness and what they're only up against is their mind.

Anna: 00:20:06

It kind of throws out all that kind of Yeah, but what about this situation?

Anna: 00:20:09

Yeah, but what about, yeah, but what about this and yeah, but what about this?

Anna: 00:20:11

And it's like, yeah.

Anna: 00:20:12

But you see it like that for yourself and when you really witness it in others, you're like, oh my God.

Anna: 00:20:17

Life wants to thrive.

Anna: 00:20:19

Life wants to flow.

Anna: 00:20:22

We do such a great job of coming up with all the reasons.

Anna: 00:20:27

To limit our own, our own selves, and why sometimes it, like, why is it that we, it's amazing how much we wanna kind of, put a stake in the ground for why we can't do something or why something's hard or why, and when that stake in the ground disappears and we realize that's made up, then the possibilities are just endless.

Anna: 00:20:44

And I think that that's been so huge for me to see through others as well as in myself.

Julia: 00:20:49

And where have you seen that really deeply Anna?

Julia: 00:20:52

Cuz I, I'm imagining there's quite a few listeners that are kind of going, Oh, that's, that's a really profound thing that you just shared, and you know, haven't necessarily come across the principles, haven't necessarily Seen the understanding of, of how the mind works and might be feeling, that they've heard something in what you've just said, but they wanna know, they wanna know more, how would you share that with them?

Anna: 00:21:21

Okay, I've got three.

Anna: 00:21:22

I got three examples.

Anna: 00:21:23

There was one guy in, who'd been in and out of prison his whole life with addiction issues.

Anna: 00:21:28

His child had died on his chest when they were two years old.

Anna: 00:21:35

It wasn't his fault.

Anna: 00:21:37

But his whole life, he felt like it was his fault, right?

Anna: 00:21:41

He, he felt like if only this, I'd done this or I wasn't asleep, I would've noticed if I wasn't, you know, just they were both asleep and it, and the baby was on his chest.

Anna: 00:21:48

And, and he'd, he'd had his own life thing that he didn't start just there.

Anna: 00:21:52

And I met him in his fifth or sixth round in prison.

Anna: 00:21:55

And he couldn't get beyond grief.

Anna: 00:21:59

That he, he felt that the, the feeling of grief was so intense that he needed to use drugs to get away from that feeling because it brought every, it was like he was swimming in that feeling of grief and shame and, and, and, and the things that.

Anna: 00:22:16

And when he, we, he started to just get glimpses for himself that when he thinks about his child, he experiences his child.

Anna: 00:22:28

That a, a memory or a feeling that he thought his, his, his memory could hurt him.

Anna: 00:22:33

You know, that it was hurting him all the time with a feeling of grief.

Anna: 00:22:36

And he realized and I'm, I'm kind of paraphrasing in a way, so I'm trying to kind of, that the feeling of grief, was an, was an interpretation that was completely made up.

Anna: 00:22:47

And actually the feeling that was coming through him was also was, was love.

Anna: 00:22:51

Rather, you know, that he'd made up so much about this feeling of like, it's great and I can't h handle it and I don't wanna handle it and therefore I'm gonna go and use something.

Anna: 00:22:58

And then realizing that actually what's moving through him when he's thinking about his child is deep love because grief can't be there without love.

Anna: 00:23:07

And so there was a very, very different experience of the feeling and everything changed.

Anna: 00:23:13

And it was almost like he, he felt his child kind of coming through him with a deep feeling of, of, of love, and before it had looked like grief.

Anna: 00:23:20

And so there was just a different thought around a judgment around what the sensation in his body he was experiencing.

Anna: 00:23:27

And he left prison and he hasn't used in three something years.

Anna: 00:23:34

now he got married and he had another child and he'd call me in tears and he's like, Anna, I'm so scared I'm gonna have another child.

Anna: 00:23:40

I'm so scared about having another child because like once if the same thing happens again?

Anna: 00:23:45

And he, then we just did some, him seeing that what's happening is this, this thought, you know, that he was bringing into the, into the present moment that was then coloring how he was experiencing the possibilities right here.

Anna: 00:23:59

That it wasn't true that he, it was just, that's what the mind does.

Anna: 00:24:02

It's bringing us an ex, it's like remembering or bringing a memory back to life.

Anna: 00:24:06

And, and then he could sit with this kind of fearful feeling and realize it wasn't true.

Anna: 00:24:10

And his daughter's now like three or four and I don't know, two or three.

Anna: 00:24:13

She's small.

Anna: 00:24:14

I can't work our ages of children.

Anna: 00:24:15

But she's small.

Anna: 00:24:16

But that was an example of someone seeing.

Anna: 00:24:20

that their feelings are over only ever coming from thought in the moment.

Anna: 00:24:24

And that's not a bad thing.

Anna: 00:24:25

And we don't need to be scared of our feelings.

Julia: 00:24:27

I think that's beautiful Anna and is, it is very connected to what you were saying earlier about, you know, when you can really tune into your body, and you can be with the feelings that are are in your body, and if you can really understand that that feeling is just telling you about the thinking that's going on in you in that moment, it opens up this space of choice to go, Well, do I want to go with that?

Julia: 00:24:55

Cuz it's gonna take me in one direction, or do I wanna go somewhere different?

Julia: 00:24:59

And it's that seeing that we always have that choice in the direction that we almost point our minds because our minds are designed to just bring us thinking wherever we point it.

Anna: 00:25:13

I, I think too, it doesn't that there's, there's such a, there's such a desire in humans to not feel certain things and that to be scared of certain feelings and therefore wanna get away from certain feelings.

Anna: 00:25:23

And we were in a staff meeting yesterday and someone was like, I, you know, God, I feel this tension.

Anna: 00:25:28

How do you, how do people get away from tension?

Anna: 00:25:30

I was like, what's wrong with tension?

Anna: 00:25:32

Like, know, we had this idea that it's that we need to get away from it, or we don't wanna feel stressed, or we don't wanna feel anxious.

Anna: 00:25:37

It's like, why not?

Anna: 00:25:37

It's just a sensation.

Anna: 00:25:38

Like if we, I feel tension and an anxiety and all the things, I just don't care because I know what it is.

Anna: 00:25:45

Like I know that it's not telling me something about my life, it's just my body giving me a sensation.

Anna: 00:25:51

And that I, that can, if I'm in a place where I'm, something going on and I, that feeling can fall, fall away or fall to the background, and then presence can, can be.

Anna: 00:26:00

But if I think I've gotta get rid of an anxious feeling for me to be present, or I've gotta get rid of a stressful feeling to be okay, or I've gotta get rid of anger to be able to have a conversation with someone, if we know that that's just sensation and it's, it's, it's like understanding our internal climate, that what am I showing up with?

Anna: 00:26:18

If I know that I'm showing up in a certain climate that the, but I don't have to pay attention to it, then I'm able to, to then like, move beyond it and, and not, and not get so caught up with the feelings that I'm having and I don't like them and I wanna feel different and.

Anna: 00:26:34

And that was the, we were in prison once and this guy, it was boiling.

Anna: 00:26:38

It was like in the middle of summer.

Anna: 00:26:39

We were having a heat wave.

Anna: 00:26:40

It was like 106.

Anna: 00:26:41

In prison there's no, there's no air, there was no air conditioning, right?

Anna: 00:26:43

We were in this room and it was absolutely boiling.

Anna: 00:26:45

No one else was making a fuss except this one guy.

Anna: 00:26:47

He was just like, we have these folders that we have when you know things.

Anna: 00:26:50

And he was like flapping his folder and he was la da and I was kind of not wanting to pay much attention to him because he was just being distracting.

Anna: 00:26:57

And I was like, why do you care so much that you are hot?

Anna: 00:26:59

It's just a feeling.

Anna: 00:27:01

And I don't know.

Anna: 00:27:02

I, it was something really off the cuff.

Anna: 00:27:04

It wasn't meant to be profound.

Anna: 00:27:05

It wasn't meant to be anything.

Anna: 00:27:06

It was just like, why do you care that you are hot?

Anna: 00:27:07

Like it doesn't, like, it's just, it's just a feeling.

Anna: 00:27:09

And, and Eddie didn't touch the side, so he just carried on.

Anna: 00:27:12

He didn't care.

Anna: 00:27:13

Anyway, the next time we came back, there was another guy in the room who had very severe Tourettes where he'd, he'd, he'd lit, he'd be shaking, kind of moving his body like all the time.

Anna: 00:27:22

And, and, and it was a very kind of clear body ex, he just was in that space and he, he, yeah, he had Tourettes pretty badly.

Anna: 00:27:30

And the next week after we came back and we were just checking in, and I hadn't noticed that the, that the shaking had completely stopped.

Anna: 00:27:37

And, and he said, well, I really heard something in what you said to, you know, Carl last week.

Anna: 00:27:43

Like, why do I, why do you care that you're having a feeling?

Anna: 00:27:46

Or why do you care that you're hot?

Anna: 00:27:47

It's only a feeling.

Anna: 00:27:49

And he said, I realized that I'm feeling anxious and that I twitched to relieve my anxiety.

Anna: 00:27:56

And that because I'm feeling anxious all the time.

Anna: 00:27:58

I'm constantly moving to twitch.

Anna: 00:28:00

I, I, I'm, I had an idea that if I move, it's gonna alleviate the anxiety.

Anna: 00:28:04

And then I thought, why do I care that I'm feeling anxious?

Anna: 00:28:07

It's just a feeling.

Anna: 00:28:09

And it didn't make sense for me to get rid of it.

Anna: 00:28:11

And so then the feeling that we need to, to the need to move my body just kind of went away.

Anna: 00:28:17

And so he said, I can feel anxious and this has happened in a week, right?

Anna: 00:28:19

And this was like an off the cuff moment.

Anna: 00:28:21

I try and, you think you're making profound statements.

Anna: 00:28:23

You're doing this and you're making a comment that's actually a little bit snarky cuz this guy was kind of actually irritating.

Anna: 00:28:27

But he heard something so profound and it totally changed the way he moved.

Anna: 00:28:33

And it was only because he realized that he didn't need to react to a feeling.

Anna: 00:28:38

And it's that simple.

Anna: 00:28:40

And when you see that a lot of people in prison are there because they reacted to a feeling, or they wanted to find relief from a feeling.

Anna: 00:28:49

So if it looks like I'm gonna get relief from hurting you, I'm gonna keep doing it.

Anna: 00:28:53

know, If I reacted to a feeling because I felt rage and I needed to just, you know, I, I think so.

Anna: 00:28:58

I do, you know, I listen, I believe everything I think, and it, my body's telling me to hit someone or kill someone, or, go out and do something for someone, or, you know, use dr, that's what I'm gonna do.

Anna: 00:29:07

And so when you start to have agency, and when you were talking about, you know, you have a choice until you see it, it doesn't feel like a choice.

Anna: 00:29:15

So when, when you, when you realize that you have agency in what you're paying attention to and what you're putting life into, then you realize it's choice and then life looks different.

Julia: 00:29:25

and it's so fascinating, isn't it, Anna, how, the population just, there's so many people that just don't realize they're thinkers, just doesn't look like thought is involved at all in any way, shape or form.

Julia: 00:29:38

And how, how has that sort of evolved in, the work that you do with, people when they wake up to that fact that they are a thinker?

Anna: 00:29:45

it, it creates so much potential.

Anna: 00:29:48

Because sometimes we can look at this as like getting away from thought.

Anna: 00:29:51

Cuz so much of our thought, especially, you know, that we all know can be destructive or it can hold us back or it can create limitations.

Anna: 00:29:58

But when you look at the, the power of thought to create everything that we see in the world, it's created because someone had an idea and brought it to life.

Anna: 00:30:09

All of us are here because we had a thought, we don't see life without thought.

Anna: 00:30:14

And well for us as an organization, you know, anything's possible.

Anna: 00:30:17

It doesn't mean that I'm gonna become an NBA player and I'm gonna like, do, do something that is clearly outside the bounds of my capabilities.

Anna: 00:30:25

I may wanna try, I can just have fun.

Anna: 00:30:28

I don't, I don't have an sort of a, a feeling that I have to be that thing or I have to do that thing, but I can.

Anna: 00:30:34

It's like being in prison, realizing that we wanted to work with people.

Anna: 00:30:37

You know, A lot of people would say, a lot of women especially was like, do you offer this program in Spanish?

Anna: 00:30:41

And I was like, oh no, I wish, I really wish I did.

Anna: 00:30:43

I really wish we did.

Anna: 00:30:44

You know?

Anna: 00:30:44

And I started learning Spanish.

Anna: 00:30:46

And I thought, I'm gonna learn Spanish and I'm gonna like teach this class.

Anna: 00:30:49

I'm gonna teach this whole thing in Spanish.

Anna: 00:30:51

And I was like, yeah, no, that's just not gonna happen.

Anna: 00:30:53

You can hardly remember what happened yesterday, let alone how to remember a whole language.

Anna: 00:30:56

Don't be ridiculous.

Anna: 00:30:58

But then the next person we ended up hiring, actually speak Spanish.

Anna: 00:31:02

It, they're, they're a little rusty is their native language, but they, you know, brought up in, grew up in America and they've been having Spanish class lessons.

Anna: 00:31:09

And, and then actually we're hiring someone else who's also like/ and it's like, oh my God, we cannot, we gonna.

Anna: 00:31:14

So where it went was like, it's intention of we are gonna, we wanna do this in Spanish, but how it materialized, something different.

Anna: 00:31:19

And I think that people have ideas, especially when they get out, I'm gonna do this when I get outta prison this is what's gonna happen.

Anna: 00:31:24

And then when it doesn't happen straight away, then they can feel, it hasn't worked.

Anna: 00:31:29

And of course, of course it's not gonna work.

Anna: 00:31:31

I can't get a job.

Anna: 00:31:32

This isn't gonna work for me.

Anna: 00:31:34

But not believing the thinking that's coming through your head and going No, I'm, I'm onto you.

Anna: 00:31:38

I know that that's, that's just, I don't need to believe everything.

Anna: 00:31:41

I think, and I know that beyond that, there's something else.

Anna: 00:31:44

And then staying with it and then being able to kind of come up with creative ideas about how to move forward and just like, what are we paying attention to?

Anna: 00:31:51

People that could have easily ended up back in prison by believing the first thought that came into their head when someone said no to a job, rather than going, well, that's just one person.

Anna: 00:32:00

It doesn't mean anything about me.

Anna: 00:32:02

It just means that I'm, I don't get that job.

Anna: 00:32:04

Okay, let's let, what else?

Anna: 00:32:05

What else?

Anna: 00:32:06

What else is available?

Anna: 00:32:07

What else is available?

Anna: 00:32:08

And I think that's realizing the creative capacity of the mind that it doesn't often look like you think it's gonna look, but that's okay because we just made that up anyway, of what we think and the assumptions that we make and the perceptions that we have about what we, how we're supposed to be or what we're supposed to do.

Anna: 00:32:24

And that could be in gang life, it can be in family life, it can be in a business, it can be anywhere.

Anna: 00:32:30

What we think we are capable of or what we think is expected of us, or what we think we should do, what codes are we living under, what, what nonsense do we believe that is just, you know, we've inherited from our mothers or a teacher or something.

Anna: 00:32:44

Oh yeah, I can't do that.

Anna: 00:32:45

Just not me or all those things.

Anna: 00:32:46

And that starts to fall off.

Anna: 00:32:47

And then you just realize that the world has so much more potential, even if you've, you know, you've got a criminal record, even if you this, or even if that.

Anna: 00:32:53

It's like, no, no, it, it's, there's possibilities everywhere.

Anna: 00:32:58

But we can't see what, we can't see if we are living with really scratchy glasses on because we haven't looked at the filter and, and sort of seeing that we can kind of like change it or we can see beyond it, or we can wear different glasses or we can realize that the glasses are made up.

Anna: 00:33:14

You know that the whole thing is an illusion.

Julia: 00:33:16

You know, there's a big debate going on at the moment around, you know, a lot of the structural issues that have created divides, especially in America around race and gender and, you know, these sort of very intrinsic patriarchal structures or race structures, that have gone on for, huge amounts of of time.

Julia: 00:33:37

What, what have you seen about that with the people that you are working with who could potentially believe all of those structures are the things that are holding them back?

Anna: 00:33:46

When you start looking in that direction, you realize the power of thought.

Anna: 00:33:51

Because you see how people are being kept down because of a thought of, I'm better than you.

Anna: 00:33:56

We've worked with, white supremacists in prison, wouldn't sit next to the person of color, wouldn't sit next to the gay guy, and then actually starts to realize that, that they've been inherited thinking from their brothers and their father, and that none of it's true.

Anna: 00:34:10

And if I'm okay, and if I'm made of this mind that I'm a spiritual being having a human experience, well then you are too.

Anna: 00:34:17

And that doesn't make sense to me, to judge you based on your race or the, sexual orientation.

Anna: 00:34:21

That's not nice.

Anna: 00:34:22

That doesn't feel good.

Anna: 00:34:23

Like why?

Anna: 00:34:24

It doesn't make me feel good either.

Anna: 00:34:26

And what I love about this understanding is are reaching the common humanity where there there's no separation.

Anna: 00:34:33

That underneath the thought created world that we live in, that we can't not see because we're living in these human bodies, which are amazing movie creators with an amazing special effects team, but when you are onto yourself and you realize some of the stuff that you, you, you are continuing to live by, which may be then internalized oppression, which are carrying with you from ancestors and from all the, the things that you actually have a possibility to, to see beyond it and see, create a potential and be a part of the solution and stand for something else.

Anna: 00:35:03

And, and be in an organization where there's all sorts of different diversity that you see that people can live side by side.

Anna: 00:35:09

Because actually where we're connecting is somewhere beyond the color of our skin or our cultural heritage or our sexual orientation or anything else that we may see the other, or we may see difference.

Anna: 00:35:22

This allows us to move beyond that and that, it's like underneath the, the tips of these icebergs that we're all living on, that we're experiencing life, then underneath there's a huge body of like, connection.

Anna: 00:35:34

That's all one, you know?

Anna: 00:35:36

And, and I think when people start to see that, they see beyond oppression, they see beyond the color of their skin that we see.

Anna: 00:35:41

And it's not that we don't respect each other's cultural differences.

Anna: 00:35:44

It's like we're not in an organization where we're like, Oh yeah, we don't see color.

Anna: 00:35:47

It's like, no, no.

Anna: 00:35:47

We wanna respect people and we wanna respect the differences.

Anna: 00:35:51

But we can also know when that's holding us back and that we need to have a conversation about it and talk to each other about it.

Anna: 00:35:57

And know that my intent, there's no ill intent when I'm trying to ask you, I'm asking you a question about something that I don't know something about.

Anna: 00:36:03

But it's okay if I ask that question because I have blind spots too.

Anna: 00:36:07

But I feel in a safe enough place that we're, I can ask you something and or you can do the same with me and we can get to that level where Ill intent isn't on the table because we're just doing the best we can with the state of mind we have and how we're experiencing life and, and we don't see what we don't see until we see it.

Anna: 00:36:23

And when we start to educate ourselves or when we start to see something beyond that, then the world of possibilities opens up where we can connect and we can love and we can appreciate the other.

Anna: 00:36:34

We realize that there is no other, you know, it's like that, what people thought was possible for themselves and then blowing straight past it.

Anna: 00:36:41

And, and it's like, oh my God, I didn't realize I could, get off paper.

Anna: 00:36:44

I could buy a house, I could have a family, I could have a really good job that I love and I can have health insurance and I can have fun and I can get on a plane and I can go other places and I can do these things because it didn't look that was possible.

Anna: 00:36:55

So it, there's all sorts of.

Anna: 00:36:56

And for me too, like I didn't think it was, I never thought I was gonna start a nonprofit.

Anna: 00:37:00

Like I was like, I can't do that.

Anna: 00:37:01

I'm not a business.

Anna: 00:37:03

I didn't do well in school.

Anna: 00:37:04

I was always the stupid one in our family, you know?

Anna: 00:37:06

Like I had all those thoughts.

Anna: 00:37:07

It was like, no, no, no, I can't do that.

Anna: 00:37:08

And it was like, well, well maybe, well fuck it.

Anna: 00:37:11

Let's just try,

Julia: 00:37:12

Maybe let's not believe those today and see what's

Anna: 00:37:14

Exactly.

Anna: 00:37:16

It is all bullshit to start with.

Anna: 00:37:18

Yeah.

Julia: 00:37:18

Well, Anna, it is been an absolute joy having this conversation with you.

Julia: 00:37:22

And we, we've gone in so many different places.

Julia: 00:37:25

But if people wanna know more about your work, if they want to find out about you, support you, how can they go about doing that?

Anna: 00:37:32

Well, our website is, is just the name, theinsightalliance.org.

Anna: 00:37:39

That's the best way to, to, to get in touch with our organization.

Anna: 00:37:42

We have an, we have a newsletter that we we actually started when we were in pr, we couldn't come into prison.

Anna: 00:37:47

It's called Moments of Insight.

Anna: 00:37:48

And on the website, there's a, there's a piece that's Moments of Insight and like people from prison would send us art or send us poetry or stories, and then we'd also add things that were connected to this understanding.

Anna: 00:37:58

So, And also we have a curriculum, which, between Spark Initiative, Beyond Recovery and Insight Alliance there's a website which is insighttowellbeing.org and that's actually our curriculum, which we do, do trainings and sell the license for, so people could actually take this program.

Anna: 00:38:13

If you are somewhere listening to this and you're like, oh God, I'd love to take this into a prison and, and where I'm at because how do I do that?

Anna: 00:38:20

Then you can always get in touch and we can think outside the box of what that looks like.

Anna: 00:38:24

But you, but then there's also that curriculum that we licensed and took a long time to create.

Anna: 00:38:28

So yeah, there's a lot of ways you can, you can get in touch or, or find out more so.

Julia: 00:38:32

Fabulous.

Julia: 00:38:33

And I, I'm gonna do a quick plug for your amazing TED Talk that you can find on Ted Talks and you just put in Anna Debenham and it's there and it's, it's fabulous.

Julia: 00:38:43

And I don't has, sort of moved past all of the thinking she has about herself.

Julia: 00:38:50

Probably forgot it a long time ago.

Julia: 00:38:51

That it's even there as a resource.

Anna: 00:38:54

I, I do.

Anna: 00:38:54

I, yeah.

Anna: 00:38:55

I forget.

Anna: 00:38:56

But it's, it was, it was, that was a, that was an experience.

Anna: 00:38:59

Yeah.

Anna: 00:38:59

It was, it still, it is, is a good resource.

Anna: 00:39:01

It, it's, that's a good example of getting out of your own way and breathing through that experience.

Julia: 00:39:08

So if you've just listened to that conversation between Anna and I and you found it useful, then share it with someone else that you think might find it helpful.

Julia: 00:39:21

, there was so much in that conversation with Anna and we went in a lot of different directions, but what really resonated with me is why do you care about a feeling such a profound question that Anna asked.

Julia: 00:39:36

Um, We get all of these feelings all day long and they're really just sensations running through our body, and we can make them mean a whole bunch of things.

Julia: 00:39:48

And it was really interesting how Anna shared that, most of the people that she is working with in prison are in prison because they either reacted to a feeling or they were trying to get relief from a feeling, because they believed everything that they were thinking.

Julia: 00:40:06

How often do you believe the thoughts that pop up in your head and think you have to act on them?

Julia: 00:40:12

And then later really wished that you hadn't?

Julia: 00:40:16

The other area that Anna covered was the huge potential that gets released when we realize that we are not our thinking and we don't have to believe everything that we think.

Julia: 00:40:32

And we can see this creative power that we all have inside of us to create the world which we live in.

Julia: 00:40:40

I think she said on a number of occasions, we, we can't experience life without thought, and that has massive potential within it.

Julia: 00:40:49

And the other thing that she shared, But we don't have to believe everything we think about ourselves.

Julia: 00:40:57

So if you are sitting there thinking, well, I could never blah, blah, blah, or this is just not possible for me, do you really have to believe that thought?

Julia: 00:41:09

and if you didn't, what potential might get released in you?

Julia: 00:41:13

What ideas might be sparked in you?

Julia: 00:41:16

What could happen as a result?