Episode 9
How to lead with purpose
“Every business needs a maniac and a minder.” Following a friend’s advice, Liam Black has been how to train the manic and feed the minder.
Liam is a mentor, with a wealth of experience to draw on, who provides practical advice for generative leaders who want to make a difference in the world. In his conversation with Julia, he discusses understanding one's purpose, navigating difficult bureaucracies, and staying healthy while achieving great results.
His book, How to Lead With Purpose provides detailed, practical guidance as well as real-world examples that illustrate how purposeful leadership can have a positive impact on society.
Key takeaways
- Liam has an incredible ability to detect bullshit, even in himself. He is self-reflective and asks tough questions, which can make people uncomfortable, but they can help us break through our current understanding and push us further.
- The only thing that can truly hinder you is yourself. Learning to stay grounded and move away from anxious, backward-looking thoughts is something we could all benefit from. Taking a moment to be present and focus on what we know to be true can help us more than we realise.
- Living your purpose is a feeling – you know it when you're in it. But it's easy to get lost and drift away from that feeling. That's why it's important to reflect on your own thinking. A mentor can help in exploring your own thinking when you can't do it on your own.
Links
Transcript
Welcome to Generative Leaders.
Julia:If you've got a dream to change the world with purpose and want the lessons in life from a gloves off mentor, this is the episode for you today.
Julia:I'm in conversation with Liam Black.
Julia:So Liam.
Liam:Hello Julia.
Liam:Fantastic to see you.
Liam:It really is.
Liam:I associate you with, uh, some really interesting times and interesting stuff that we did when you were at Centrica and how impressed and amazed I was at the way in which you were able to navigate one the most fucked up company bureaucracies I have ever come across in my life, but, and we did some good stuff there with that, with that fund.
Julia:I've learned so much from you.
Liam:Oh, thank you.
Julia:In this space of generative leadership.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:I think that you.
Julia:My first mentor in really understanding what it means to be an intrapreneur.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:To get clear about your purpose.
Julia:To bring people together around a shared mission.
Julia:And that's evolved ever since.
Julia:And I think, you know, we are sort of, we've been on this mutual learning journey now.
Liam:We certainly have.
Julia:And um, and now you have a book.
Liam:I have a book.
Liam:I have a book.
Liam:It's called How to Lead With Purpose and it's great
Julia:Well, I, I stopped reading about four years ago.
Liam:Right.
Julia:And, um, only went entirely to Audible.
Liam:Right.
Julia:But I have to tell you, I sat down and I read your book and you know, there are a lot of leadership books that are really shit.
Julia:And then there's some that you read while you're having a shit
Julia:Exactly, exactly.
Liam:Having a shit.
Liam:Read this book.
Julia:Read the book.
Julia:Exactly.
Julia:Exactly.
Julia:And then, you know, you get complaints from your family saying, get out of the bathroom.
Julia:You've been in there.
Liam:Well, that's praise indeed.
Julia:It's so gripping.
Liam:Well the book I wanted to write was sort of in some ways sort of anti leadership book of the usual sort, much shorter, full of honesty and directness and just useful to people.
Liam:And no abstract theories, and also, I mean, again, physically, so short enough to read, but also physically small enough as a product to be able to put in your handbag or put in the coat of your pocket and read rather than a big tone that you may or may not move from the coffee table or the side of your bed.
Liam:So I'm, I'm delighted to hear that it has worked, although that image of you sitting there having a shit is going to stay with me for some time.
Julia:the whole book is designed for the audience that we are talking to.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:Um, you know, this sense of a generative.
Julia:Leader one that's leading with purpose, that's serving society, serving future generations.
Julia:What, what do you think makes a generative leader, you know, how do they show up in the world?
Liam:I think they show up with Some clarity about why they want to do what they're doing.
Liam:And I talk back in the book about, you know, the various things.
Liam:Sometimes it's a personal experience of a social issue.
Liam:Your, your dad was made unemployed or you, your mom was homeless or you were, and you got that.
Liam:Or you have a religious drive, you know you're a Christian and you think, and, and your belief is that I will exercise my faith in the world by, by trying to tackle homelessness, uh, uh, uh, or whatever.
Liam:Um, so I think that they have some, we have some sort of good grasp of why it is we're doing what we're doing.
Liam:Also, uh, are are aware that they are generative leaders.
Liam:That there is something different about trying to, to change the world and not, not only change the world, but the process of doing that is different, um, as well.
Liam:Um, they tend to be, uh, often anxious, um, uh, prone to worrying.
Liam:Um, I certainly am..
Liam:they're also good learners.
Liam:Some, some of them.
Liam:Um, some of them are maniacs and some of them are minders.
Liam:They're talking in the book about maniacs and minders that Steven Lloyd once said to me, a lawyer, a friend of mine died a few years ago, every business is a maniac and a minder.
Liam:And one of the things that I've trying to learn in my experience is not only does, could that be two separate people, but actually with ourselves as generative leaders, you have to deal with the internal maniac.
Liam:Minder and when they are working together.
Liam:, you can achieve great things.
Liam:For myself, when they start to get out of alignment, that's when I get into, when I get into trouble.
Liam:But they come in all shapes and sizes.
Liam:You know, I've been lucky to mentor and work with men into their sixties as well as young women in their twenties and thirties trying to make sense of how do you change this world, um, for the better, at the same time is not going mad and, uh, being able to have a decent relationship and, and all of that as well.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:So they, they, they kind of, you, I kind of know them when I see them, and I also know them when they're bullshitting me and there's a lot of bullshit around this space.
Liam:Um, I, I, I fear.
Liam:So, yeah.
Liam:So the book is written for people like that, not to get into any sort of, you know, abstract theories, but also really practic stuff.
Liam:How do you get to your why?
Liam:Why is it important to understand that?
Liam:How does it change over time?
Liam:I talk about a bit about myself in the book, and if you'd asked me in my twenties when I was on the streets of London fighting the racists and, you know, going on demos and doing all the, getting arrested at nuclear bases and so on, if you'd asked me, why are you doing this, Liam?
Liam:Why haven't you got himself a, um, you know, proper job with a nice pension like your mum wants you to, I'd be giving you an answer that was, Left wing politics, Irish Republicanism and Catholic Liberation Theology.
Liam:I'm the son of Irish Catholics.
Liam:Um, but looking back now, you know, my why and understanding of what I was doing is really different.
Liam:You know, there was all of that for sure.
Liam:Uh, fear was a bit of a zealot at times.
Liam:I was probably quite unpleasant, I think, when sometimes in my twenties.
Liam:But looking back now, I have a lot of compassion for the young man who was, I think just trying to be heard and, and, and particularly heard by his absent father who had abandoned him when he was three.
Liam:You know, so understanding what drives our generative leadership when we're 20, 30, 40, 50, and God help us, Julia sixties as I'm now in and, and I think that, you know, the advice I give people in the book is if you want to stay healthy and you wanna stay, getting great results and having good, uh, relationships and all the stuff that we want to live a full human life, you really do need to understand that and keep coming back to it.
Liam:I have say you've been really helpful to me.
Liam:It, you know, in the relationship that we've had, you know, uh, challenging me, challenging me a few times on that while I'm actually forgotten.
Liam:Actually, I'm a bit gone over here a little bit and I need to, I need to come back.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:So the whole book is trying to.
Liam:Really be honest with people is told through the eyes of some of the people that I've had the privilege to, to mentor, whether they're senior corporate people or sort of, um, grassroots, um, social entrepreneurs.
Liam:And although they're very different, they do have a lot in common.
Julia:So you mentioned that you've entered your six year decade.
Julia:Yes.
Julia:And so what's your why now?
Liam:The, the next week is real in interesting week for me.
Liam:So I'm stepping down from the chair of the Conduit in London, which I've done for the last two years as part of the turnaround team after the administration that happened in, uh, in, in London in 2020.
Liam:And it's been really all absorbing.
Liam:It's been, you know, very challenging.
Liam:Uh, all of my buttons have been pushed.
Liam:All of my anxiety is, you know, my anxiety generator doesn't need much fuel.
Liam:It's a sort of solar powered thing, and it could, you don't need any sun.
Liam:And so all my buttons been pushed there by opening a building recruiting loads and loads of people, dealing with shareholders, all of that, all of the drama and everything that comes with that.
Liam:But I've decided to step out of that because I want to, I really feel I'm in going into a new phase, um, of my life.
Liam:And I, I think this is to, how do, how do I learn to be an older man, married to a woman that I've been married to for 40 odd years, grandfather of four.
Liam:When I don't want to, Have lots of executive stuff cuz it's bloody tiring and I'm kind of, I'm kind of done with that.
Liam:So what's the mix in my life of mentoring, board work, writing, friendship, family, uh, that is gonna keep me healthy and, uh, engaged for until I'm 70?
Liam:And, um, you find me at the beginning of that, uh, journey really.
Liam:But I'm, I'm pretty clear that my sort of days of exec chair are done.
Liam:Because it's just all consuming.
Liam:And uh, if you're all consumed by that, then you don't have much left over for people like your wife.
Liam:And uh, and that's important to me cuz I've been with this woman since I was, uh, since I was 19.
Liam:So I'm still working on that.
Liam:But it's still, overall, it's the kind of mission that I had when I left Wavelength, which was a company that I ran for 10 years and through which I found you, um, Julia, which is to only do interesting and useful stuff in the world with people I like and respect.
Liam:And I, I, I'm, and I'm at the beginning of working out what that looks like now for my seventh decade.
Liam:Holy shit.
Julia:It's, it's a really interesting time, isn't it?
Julia:Because you know, a lot of, um, men that I speak to who are entering their 60th, 70th decades.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:You know, they're kind of looking back and going.
Julia:I started out at 20 wanting to change the world.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:And have I, have I changed the world or have I just lived a good life and done some interesting stuff?
Liam:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julia:You know, so where are you kind of,
Liam:Oh, I talk about that in the book.
Liam:That's, uh, that's a really interesting one.
Liam:I mean, you know, you could, in my darker moments, you know, where my mind has really got me and, uh, it's like you.
Liam:You have done some good shit, Liam.
Liam:You have some people tell you that you've, you know, you've changed their life, but honest to God, I'm a child of the seventies, right?
Liam:I was born in 1961, so I was like a teenager in the, in the, in the seventies.
Liam:And come from a real sort of working class.
Liam:Irish immigrant background.
Liam:All the men in my family remain, were, and remain bricks, navs, you know, manual workers.
Liam:I, uh, um, went to this, you know, second rate Christian brothers grammar school.
Liam:They're all in prison now.
Liam:Uh, for, for obvious reasons.
Liam:And that put me on another sort of, um, a, a another road.
Liam:But the mo, the social mobility that I have experienced, you know, going from where my, my mother and my grandparents were to sitting with you in a podcast in your lovely garden in the Home Counties, I mean, Jesus, that is quite a shift.
Liam:And it's less likely today than it was then.
Liam:So social mobility in income inequality, the state of the climate, all of those things are a lot worse than they were when I was, when I started out.
Liam:So in my darker moments, my, where my mind has really got me, I said, well actually you've really, you've had a good time, Liam.
Liam:You've met some really interesting people.
Liam:You've met Ma.
Liam:You've met Julia Rebholz, who've been involved in some amazing activity at the Conduit, and you worked with Jamie and you had your own business, right?
Liam:But actually, , the world is shitter than it was when you started, so you've kind of wasted your time.
Liam:That's on my dark days.
Liam:On my other days.
Liam:I say, well actually I'm not gonna be able to change the word on my own, am I?
Liam:And that's a stupid goal to give myself.
Liam:All I can say is that I have all at all times, tried, failed, probably as much as I have tried to pursue this, you know, I, I've got a limited time on the, on this planet.
Liam:I wanna leave it a bit better.
Liam:And if I've left that better by some of the influence that I've had on people, whether that's, I've been able to, you know, been involved in organizations that's created decent, honorable work for people who are overlooked, um, or I've been able to get furniture into the homes of thousands of poor families as we did in Liverpool and so on, then that's good.
Liam:And I think part of the gen, generative, uh, leader thing is being comfortable in the, uh, contrast between what you really, really, really want to do and, and what actually you have done.
Liam:And I think, again, I think generative leaders, certainly it's true of me and I think a lot of other social entrepreneurs that I know is you have these very high goals.
Liam:You hold yourself to a punishing standard sometimes.
Liam:And I've, I, I am learning that that's just not good, because I don't deserve to be punished.
Liam:Do you know what I mean?
Liam:But it, it.
Julia:Well, maybe that's the Catholic guilt speaking.
Liam:Oh my God.
Liam:Hallelujah.
Liam:Ave ave.
Liam:There's a load.
Liam:Yeah, there is a load of that.
Liam:You know?
Liam:Um, you can take, what is he?
Liam:Take the boy outta the church, but it's hard to take the church out of the boy.
Liam:And there's no doubt about that in writing this book and rereading my journal particularly, which I did a lot in preparation for this, uh, book, I just see it, you know,.
Liam:And um, again, if you ask me in my.
Liam:Very arrogant thirties, you know, or said to me, if I'd met you, if you could cut transport back to my thirties, obviously it was a long, you know, you were born a long time after that, uh, uh, and say why you said Lynn, well, you realize the, the way you are feeling and the behavior doing is because you were brought up as a Catholic and wanted to be a Catholic priest and you have got this saving drama and this slight Messiah, this slight Messiah.
Liam:I would've gone, no, no, no, no.
Liam:I would've been very dismissive of that.
Liam:But as ever got older, I'm much more comfortable in actually actually that formation, even though there was loads of it that I didn't like and I write about some of it in the book, actually, you know, the stuff about solidarity with others.
Liam:Remembering, uh uh, the poor having a responsibility to leave things better, which I think is at the core of a lot of Catholic social teaching, that's actually a pretty good thing.
Liam:And uh, you know, sometimes I say to Maggie, uh, you know, cause I wanted to be a priest.
Liam:You know, I was only at college to play basketball, waiting to get into the seminary and I met Maggie and off we went on another, another road.
Liam:And I, you know, sometimes say to Maggie, if I hadn't been for you, I'll give you a cardinal now.
Liam:Or you know, the Archbishop of Westminster or, or even the first Pope of Irish background.
Liam:She laughs derisively like you are right now.
Liam:I'm
Julia:Julia.
Julia:Well, it's not, I imagine you being a Cardinal.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:I can't imagine you not being with Maggie.
Liam:Exactly.
Liam:So I think for me it's been a, it continues to be, on some days a struggle, on other days, a kind of liberating journey to try and understand what it is that motivates me.
Liam:You know, why, uh, uh, why I am who I am?
Liam:Not get too caught up in that because I'm a believer in just like fucking do something act, you know, uh, think, learn by doing act, you know, uh, um, act and I don't overthink things.
Liam:But yeah, there's no doubt about it that that formation and some of that guilt and some of that sense of obligation that I still have, there's no doubt about that comes from my upbringing.
Liam:And there's no doubt as well that, you know, that sort of leaning in and saving people I think definitely has a Catholic edge to it.
Liam:And also the fact that, you know, I didn't have a dad.
Liam:I had a very abusive stepfather and felt I had to save, you know, look after my, um, siblings.
Liam:And that if you look at what I've done in my life, I often find myself in that role of the kind of father figure, now the grandfather figure that people can rely on and all of that.
Liam:There's no doubt that that's been part of it as well.
Julia:And.
Julia:You know, one of the things that I've always admired about you is, is your ability to reflect
Liam:Yeah
Julia:and learn.
Julia:And although there's the dogmatic side of you,
Liam:There is
Julia:that, is, you know, just get it done.
Julia:Take the action, move on.
Julia:Don't procrastinate.
Liam:I'm right.
Julia:You are, you are right.
Liam:I'm right, and you are wrong.
Liam:And that's just the way it is.
Julia:Uh, you know, but then you, you so often you reflect on that, and you learn from it.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:You know.
Julia:How much of a role do you think that plays in, in generative leadership?
Liam:Oh, huge.
Liam:And if you're not, if you're not spending time to learn, then you're not, you know, you are, you are going to burn out, you are gonna hit the wall, and you'll just be useless eventually to people.
Liam:I don't know why journaling is really important to me as a way of learning and reflecting on life.
Liam:And I dunno why I started it, particularly when I graduated Maggie and I went off to Canada for two years as volun volunteer teachers.
Liam:Um, and I decided then I would start it.
Liam:I mean, the first line is something like, you know, it's the 34th of 30th of, uh, June, 1982.
Liam:I'm, I start this journal.
Liam:I dunno why I'm doing it and I dunno where it will go.
Liam:And I've now got boxes full of.
Liam:Journals and I tend to turn to them, uh, when in times of sort of anxiety or stress and I now know deliberately if I am feeling out of it, then I then sitting down and writing and reflecting really, really helps.
Liam:And sometimes it's quite, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Liam:So it's logical like, this happened today.
Liam:And what do you think?
Liam:Sometimes it's like just a kind of stream of consciousness to get it out.
Liam:Sometimes I'll write letters to myself.
Liam:Sometimes I'll write it in the third person.
Liam:You know, Liam met Julia today and I find that an interesting, uh, way of doing things.
Liam:But no learning is really, really important.
Liam:As I've got older and a bit more, less insecure, um, and a bit more confident in my abilities and have a bit of wisdom and that, that my experience has given me, I do try and the boards I'm involved in, uh, help us learn as organizations as well as individual.
Liam:But knowing, particularly if you're in the chair or the CEO as a generative leader, you have to do that work because it, it flows from you.
Liam:And if I'm not doing it, the organization will end up not doing it.
Liam:And then we're then when we're in real trouble.
Liam:I also find the mentoring a really good way of learning as.
Liam:because I have to be pre really present to people who are often sharing with me, you know, stuff that they don't tell anybody else.
Liam:Not even their spouses.
Liam:They, they tell me that's a, you know, it's a sacred thing to have people in that space.
Julia:So you wanting to be a cardinal again?
Liam:Well, I sent to, uh, I, I was, uh, I came, I came home one day from, uh, having spent a whole day with a then mentoring client who shared with me all sorts of, and I was telling Maggie about it, obviously not the detail of it, and she said, you've actually become, in some ways, become the priest you wanted to be.
Liam:Cuz it's like you hear people's confessions, and, and somehow you are giving them absolution by saying, that's okay.
Liam:I did that and I fucked that up as well.
Liam:Don't worry about it or, Or, you know, your, your penance is do this, this, and this, you know, so I think there's, there is something in that, um.
Liam:But in the me, in mentoring other generative leaders, no matter where they are, whether they're, you know, chief of staff of Jaguar Land Rover or they're, you know, a young social entrepreneur knocking their brains out, trying to create a little social enterprise in a community, I learn a huge amount by the interaction that we have together.
Liam:I'm sure you, you must experience this in your work as well.
Julia:Absolutely.
Julia:Absolutely
Liam:Julia.
Liam:And that is one of the gifts of it.
Liam:Um, and it's a terrible cliche, isn't it, that in mentoring and coaching, you get as much back as you give.
Liam:It's 100% true.
Liam:And I find, and it was only a few years ago where I thought, ah, actually I am learning a lot through this.
Liam:And sometimes it's learning that comes by being reminded.
Liam:Because don't tell your listeners this, Julia will you, but one of the dirty little secrets of the mentors is sometimes you give advice that you don't take yourself enough.
Liam:Don't tell anyone though.
Liam:Um, and so I've been in situations.
Liam:Uh, well it was one quite recently with what was going on at the Conduit.
Liam:I mean, it's been a really full on, um, role leadership role at the Conduit, and I've sort of come out of a bit of craziness there to go into a mentoring, uh, situation with, uh, one of my clients.
Liam:And, you know, I do the breathing and I try and get really, really, really present.
Liam:And I found at the end of the two hours I felt so much better.
Liam:I dunno how they felt.
Liam:Hopefully they felt well, , I mean, they're paying me money.
Liam:Julia, so I'm hoping they got what they wanted.
Liam:I certainly did.
Liam:So, um, so yeah, learning is really, really, um, uh, important.
Liam:But also of formal learning.
Liam:I find difficult as in going to conferences going to seven hours, cuz my tolerance level of bullshit is so low.
Liam:Uh, my attention span listening to some of the crap that's out.
Liam:Uh, in impact investing in all of those sorts of worlds is so low.
Liam:I do sabotage myself by going, I am not gonna get along to that cause I just know it's gonna be shit, so I'm gonna go.
Liam:So I'm looking for, so one of the things I'm thinking in my sixties is, should I do some formal learning?
Julia:Mm.
Liam:Maybe I, you know, someone suggested an organizational psychology degree or something.
Liam:Um, so I'm thinking about that at the moment because on, to be honest, I have been on broadcast for a long time.
Liam:I'm thinking maybe about time that, uh, there was a little bit of, uh, a nourishment and input going this way.
Julia:I think it could sound like that, but it sounds like when naturally you are really present with your clients, that actually the amount that you are receiving and learning is.
Julia:Is far greater than what you're broadcasting.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:Uh, 100%.
Liam:You know, and, um, I'm always, you know, I've been around the block a few times now on, on lots of things, but I always am still like, someone did it this morning, you know, they got in touch and says, you know, as, uh, have we come to the end of our contracted hours, Liam?
Liam:And I said, let me have a look.
Liam:My recordkeeping is pretty shit as well.
Liam:And uh, I said, oh, actually, yeah, we've done, uh, 16 hours, not 12.
Liam:Oh, all right, I wanna renew.
Liam:I want renew.
Liam:Send me the invoice.
Liam:Uh, and whenever that happens, there's a bit me that goes, wow, why, why are they doing, why are they doing this?
Liam:Um, but I think part of that reaction must be that I get so much from, you know, their energy, their honesty, the, you know, the, and very specific learning about their industry and what regenerative leadership looks like in manufacturing or finance or healthcare or, you know, climate technology.
Liam:So that's, it is, it's, it's, it's a real gift.
Liam:And that, and again, mentoring is something that, uh, I can continue to do until I die.
Liam:So, And I, and I, and I really hope to be able, Dude, that'd be interesting.
Liam:At what point I get to the, you know, that old geezer who's still flogging himself as a mentor, saying the same old shit he's been saying since he was 50, but I might be a few years away from that, I hope.
Julia:One of the big things that you talk about in the book is two sides of the coin.
Julia:One is the systemic challenges
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:that the, uh, the generative leader faces.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:Um, and you know how to navigate that.
Julia:And then the other component and dimension that you talk about the sort of more important component of how they navigate their own minds.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:and you know, what gets in the way of that.
Liam:I, I'm not a great systemic thinker.
Liam:I'm not the man to come to for grand, you know, theories of system change.
Liam:Um, I'm much more so the, the, the mentoring and the advice I give to people is very rarely about understanding the bigger world.
Liam:Healthcare or climate change or stuff, they, they're often smart enough to kind of grasp.
Liam:It's much more about the mind and it's much more about how they can be completely themselves and achieve what they want to inside this, the complexity of the system that they're trying to change, things are getting in the way.
Liam:Imposter syndrome, I think, has everybody got it?
Julia:I dunno.
Julia:Anyone that doesn't.
Liam:I think everybody has that and the different ways it turns up as well as the.
Liam:I'm a charlatan.
Liam:I shouldn't be in this room.
Liam:Someone's gonna attack me on the shoulder.
Liam:The work for me, some of the other ways it turns up is comparing myself with other people, you know, who I think are smarter, more successful, having a bigger impact in the world, making more money, better looking, yeah, la la la la la I mean, that's a, that has been a big one, uh, for me.
Liam:And then the other one is not sufficiently celebrating wins, and always focusing on the bad.
Liam:You know, I give an example of a, you know, one of my clients who had a real break.
Liam:with a major, uh, strategic, uh, part of their company, which we had been working on for like three years with me advising him on his, how to manage himself in the board meeting, how to deal with a CEO who was a bit of a psycho.
Liam:And, uh, we got, we met up and I, I could see he just wanted to get straight into the issue that was on his mind, and I said to him, So anything happened since we last?
Liam:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liam:We, uh, we signed off that, um, strategy.
Liam:Sorry, hang on.
Liam:That strategy we've been working on for three years.
Liam:It got signed off?
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:I actually chaired the final meeting, Liam.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:And I nearly slapped him.
Liam:And he's very much like that.
Liam:If he had scored the winning goal in the World Cup, he would beat himself up for not scoring a hatch.
Liam:And again, it's that I think it's part of the imposter syndrome.
Liam:So I think dealing with that is really, really, uh, important.
Liam:Another thing, which is not a phrase that is mine, I think was a Polish politician.
Liam:This not my circus, not my monkeys.
Liam:People being drawn into either seeing it or not seeing it into the dramas and the malevolence, sometimes again, conscious or subconscious of other people.
Liam:You know, the number of times I will be, uh, mentoring someone and I'll hear all about somebody else, you know?
Liam:And then he did this, and then he did that, and then he said this to me.
Liam:I go, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Liam:I'm not mentoring that person.
Liam:I'm mentoring you.
Liam:Um, and so helping people understand, actually all you have to say is, no, I'm not doing this yet anymore.
Liam:That's all you have to do.
Liam:It's not some big thing, it's just, it's all in the, it's all in the mind, um, Julia.
Liam:So I would say 75% of the mentoring I do is helping people see and deal with the shit their mind makes up I would say.
Liam:And I think one of the benefits of the mentor is someone outside who's not involved in the melodrama and the psychodramas of that particular company or, uh, whatever it might be, who would, you know, with the eyes and ears can see and hear, actually you are dancing to the tune of somebody else, and you need to stop that.
Liam:And that's regardless of industry.
Liam:That can be private sector.
Liam:In fact, I think it might even be worse in the social entrepreneur, nonprofit world where it's not just about making money and ego, it's about making money, ego, and saying that you're changing the world.
Liam:So yeah, understanding what motivates us, how we get knocked off our purpose, what that looks like in our behavior with other people and how we feel ourselves is absolutely critical.
Liam:And you know, I look back on, there's a chapter in the book on loneliness and mental health, loneliness.
Liam:Particularly not something nothing talked about enough in, um, leadership.
Liam:And I reread my journal from my thirties when I was first was a CEO in Liverpool and Jesus Julia.
Liam:You know, I think I was properly depressed.
Liam:I think I really, really was.
Liam:You know, and I didn't have any around when I to go, Liam, Liam, come on, wake up.
Liam:Look, look, look.
Liam:You're drinking too much.
Liam:You are stressed, you are all of those, you're not present enough to your children.
Liam:Um, I feel, do feel a bit guilty.
Liam:Not been around enough with my kids and worrying about other stuff when I should have been more present, um, uh, to them.
Liam:And I draw on all of that experience when I'm, I'm mentoring and I think maybe that's some of the stuff that people like in my mentoring is I'm able to sort of say, oh, I, I was also there and you know, what I didn't do was notice enough what was going on in my life.
Liam:And that's why I probably was not as effective as I could have been.
Liam:So it's all, it's all in the mind, julia,
Julia:it is all in the mind.
Julia:And there's some really, really practical things to do.
Liam:There are absolutely.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:So when I came to your book launch
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:Um, obviously
Liam:it was great wasn't it?
Julia:Was it was fabulous.
Julia:And lots of your family were there.
Liam:They were.
Julia:And one of the best parts for me was seeing all of your children who I've got to know over the course of together.
Julia:And one of the things they shared, which, um, you know, I thought I thought was really interesting was that you've dedicated this book to your grandchildren.
Liam:I have.
Julia:And they were quite pissed off.
Liam:My daughter was particularly pissed off.
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:Um, you know, and, and, and the sort of, the rhetoric was, you know, well, you love, you love our grand grandchildren more than more than us.
Liam:Yeah, I do.
Julia:And you know, it was interesting.
Liam:I don't.
Julia:Because I, because I did say, you know, actually I think he does, but it's only because he's learned how to fully love in the latter years and not be so involved in the self and
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:You know, all the melodrama and the bullshit of changing the world.
Liam:Yeah, yeah.
Liam:No, what, uh, 100% no.
Liam:Katie, my daughter, who's Wonderful.
Liam:She, she, we have a family, uh, WhatsApp group called Family Bants.
Liam:And, uh, I was sort of bragging about the book and she goes, oh, I see it's dedicated to, uh, Isabel, Mia, Finbar and Komack and not your children.
Liam:So I probably need to cut, follow up with Katie and see is she really okay about this?
Liam:But I think she's, you're right.
Liam:I think you're absolutely right, that there is something, the purity of love you have, I have for my grandchildren is the most astonishing thing.
Liam:And partly it's, it is your old older and you're not as driven in some ways.
Liam:Um, as I was when I had my own kids, I had three small kids by the time I was 30.
Liam:You know, I had my first son when I was 23, so I was sort of a kid myself.
Liam:But with grandchildren, You, you have all, you are, you are presented with these little bodies, these little human beings.
Liam:You don't have any of the anxiety and the stuff you have as a parent.
Liam:And so you can be 100% present to them.
Liam:And, uh, that's such a gift.
Liam:And that's, that's probably why that's something in there about future generations and all of that as well.
Liam:But yeah, I think there's a, there's.
Liam:The only thing I could compare it to is, Love you have when you remember when you first fell in love with someone and there was that sort of, oh my God, I've gotta be with them.
Liam:They're absolutely lovely and you can't keep your hands off them and all of that?
Liam:That's for me, is what it's like having grandchildren.
Liam:It's like someone knocked on the door and said, are you Liam Black?
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:I've got this gift for you.
Liam:If I didn't ask for anything.
Liam:And then you handed this amazing, amazing thing.
Liam:And Maggie and I are very conscious about this.
Liam:You do kind of get a second chance to be the, one of the brilliant adults in their life, helping, loving teaching and so on.
Liam:So, yeah.
Liam:Sorry Kate, but yeah.
Julia:But there is something, there's something in that evolution isn't there, and that, you know, it is it, you know, I, I was, I was talking to someone the other day about, you know, do you remember that moment when you realized that you loved the person that you love?
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:For me it was a very, sort of very striking moment.
Julia:You know, and I can, I can almost visualize it and bring it, bring it to mind now.
Julia:And that was then very quickly followed by, I'm going to marry this person, , you know, e even though we didn't get married for five years later.
Julia:It was just, it was just so right.
Julia:It was just so true so, so obvious, so, you know, clear.
Julia:Do, do you find the same thing with purpose, you know, that it just, it's just obvious and clear?
Liam:That's a brilliant question.
Liam:No, no, I have to work at it.
Liam:It's like, I dunno, a jewel.
Liam:I have to keep rubbing to find it.
Liam:Um, and I kind of know when I'm, when I'm actually in flow and I'm really, you know, okay right.
Liam:This is what I was born to do.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:You know, I'm bloody good at this.
Liam:I'm making a difference.
Liam:I'm enabling other people.
Liam:I, I know what the sort of, I know what it feels like and looks like when it's,
Julia:When it's there.
Liam:when it's there.
Liam:But the purpose, it's a, you know, it's it, when, for me, when I start articulating it, it sounds a bit sort of banal and sort of, I wanna help people.
Liam:I want to be of use in the world.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:You know, I want to be present to those who need my support, and, and make their lives better.
Liam:Uh, I've talked to someone recently who, you know, may end up mentoring him, and he's like completely driven by, um, climate change and I, I'm not,
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:I kind of get it.
Liam:I'm like, fuck, you know, you know, I get it, but it's not, that's not what really, if, if anything, it's, it's probably around unfairness and inequality.
Liam:Prob those are the, that, that's what really gets me going.
Liam:If you look at the work that I've done, it's been, you know, the, the work with Jamie, the work, certainly the work in Liverpool, a lot of the stuff I tried to do with Wavelength has been about trying to enable those who, uh, through misfortune or through just the way up, we have conspired to organize our society are locked out.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:And unlocking that a little bit.
Liam:That's, that will probably be, if I have to say that is what my mission, um, has been.
Liam:But sometimes I forget that and I lose sight of it and I need to, to come back to it.
Liam:And again, that is one of the gifts of mentoring in the asking of you, what, well, what's your purpose and mission in life?
Liam:Julia, let's work on that.
Liam:You know, there's something in my brain that's beginning to say, well what about you Liam?
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:And let's get back to that.
Liam:And I think to back to your other questions, Julia about my sixties, I think it's, you know, one way of articulating that is, well, what is now?
Liam:how does that purpose get lived out in a, um, uh, in my sixties with all the usual stuff of, you know, I'm not, I don't play golf and I'm not a gardener and you know, if I'm not doing something, you know, this 40 year, 50 year marriage might come to an end because might be with Maggie, careful what you wish your love.
Liam:I'm home today.
Liam:Aren't you going to London?
Liam:No, I'm home again.
Liam:You know, so.
Julia:But it's, it is interesting, isn't it?
Julia:Cuz there's, there's the content aspect of purpose, and there's kind of like what you do, and there's being able to articulate that.
Julia:But then there's the feeling of knowing when you are in it, which you can't prescribe, describe in advance, you know, because when you're in it, you know it, and it's got this energy and this flow and this, this sort of life wanting to move it forward rather than you driving it and pushing it forward.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:No, a hundred percent.
Liam:Hundred percent.
Liam:And that, that, that, that, that sort of, what's the word?
Liam:Is it dichotomy or whatever it is of deliberate.
Liam:thinking about it, dealing with your why, trying to deal with your mind, all of those sorts of things and serendipity.
Liam:You know, I dunno how those two things work and I, you know, some people say you create your own luck and all of that.
Liam:And I, there is a bit of that, but also, again, look at my career.
Liam:And you can read about it in my book ladies, but you look at it and you go that okay, there is a thread through that.
Liam:No doubt about it, but it is still pretty.
Liam:You know, I used to be part of a group in Liverpool, which was very intimidating for me when I first went to, it was a Benedictine monk.
Liam:A couple of Jesuits, I think a Dominican and you know, like, and it was called, um, the Grasshoppers, and it was run by a man, a great man.
Liam:He's, he's dead now, called Tom Cullinan, who was a, um, uh, Benedictine monk and opted out of all of that private school stuff and built a little retreat center out of recycled wood and reclaimed stuff on the ends of, on the outskirts of Liverpool.
Liam:One of his scathing critics said, you have, you know, to live that simply and poorly, you have to be very rich.
Liam:But, you know, that was but fine.
Liam:So he created this thing and there was a group that met every month called the um, grasshoppers, and I was invited to join it.
Liam:I was like 24.
Liam:And here I was with all his, were old men at the time.
Liam:They were probably 40 or something.
Liam:And they were called the grasshoppers cuz they, they were saying some people's lives that they look behind them and they can see this thread through it like a snail.
Liam:And there are others.
Liam:You look back and go, well, I was over there and then I was over there.
Liam:It's a bit like a grasshopper.
Liam:So I'm not quite sure.
Liam:I'm a sort of, I'm like a, if a snail bread with a grasshopper, i, I, I'm, I'm a bit like that, but I'm also, another thing about me, I don't look back very much.
Liam:If I leave an organization, I leave, I, I leave it.
Liam:And partly that's pragmatic.
Liam:I just, I want whoever succeeds me to do it.
Liam:But also there is a bit of me that what's passed is, is gone.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:And I'll, I'll learn from that.
Liam:And I, I trust.
Liam:life enough now.
Liam:I guess that, you know, if I approach it open enough and clear enough in my head, interesting things will, will emerge.
Julia:And then your anxiety kicks in.
Liam:And then I go, shit.
Liam:Shit.
Liam:Oh my God.
Liam:Oh my God.
Liam:Oh my God.
Julia:So how do you deal with that?
Julia:How do you
Liam:I tell, how do I deal with anxiety?
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:I deal with anxiety, first of all, by acknowledging it in a way that when I was a younger man, I just wouldn't, cause I would've thought I, I definitely thought acknowledging that is a weakness.
Liam:You know, it's like admitting I'm scared cause I'm not scared.
Liam:I'm a tough Irish working class boy who can take the world on.
Liam:So partly it's, it, well definitely just acknowledging, just going, do you know what, I'm really worried about this.
Liam:And it's only relatively recently in my career that I would say things like that, a board meetings.
Liam:You know, I, I'm really worried about, I'm really anxious about this rather than pretending that everything.
Liam:And I have learned that if the, if you're sitting at the head of the board table or the, the exec, saying that out loud is not any good for yourself.
Liam:It's good for everyone around you.
Liam:As long as you
Julia:it's the collective relaxing.
Liam:There's a collective, oh my God.
Liam:It's not just me, you know, it's not just me.
Liam:And, you know, one of the senior people in the company has actually said it out loud, and that gives people permission.
Liam:So it's, it's acknowledging it and, uh, talking about it.
Liam:And I deal with it in a couple of ways.
Liam:I do a lot of walking.
Liam:I have a practice that, um, if I've got a really, you know, what I think is gonna be a challenging, board meeting or some something coming up, I will always walk for about half an hour at least before I get there.
Liam:And with the Conduit, for example, where there's been quite a lot of stressful, uh, stuff.
Liam:I will all, I will decide, right?
Liam:I've got a meeting at 11 o'clock.
Liam:I'm well prepared for it.
Liam:I think part of dealing with anxiety is making sure you are, you, you are well prepared.
Liam:But I will time, I'll look at the times are trained and give myself enough time to be able to walk from Marone to Covent Garden, very deliberately breathing, my hand on my chest to get, back to myself.
Liam:And try and as authentically as possible, get into role.
Liam:Get into the Liam that I think where I'm at my best, which is calm, funny, doesn't kick off, you knows, directive without being a dickhead.
Liam:Do you know what I mean?
Liam:And then walk into the room.
Liam:And sometimes you're right to be anxious because actually some of this shit is pretty.
Liam:People's livelihoods are at stake and reputations and investors' money, you need to be cognizant of that.
Liam:But I deal with it by acknowledging it, saying it out loud, physically dealing with it.
Liam:Journaling really, really helps me.
Liam:Um, and cocaine.
Julia:Yeah.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:I'm joking.
Liam:I don't do journaling.
Liam:And humor.
Julia:Humor.
Liam:Yes.
Julia:Humor.
Julia:Humor.
Julia:Humor.
Julia:Humor.
Julia:Humor.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:But it sounds like you know, what you are saying is the key to anxiety is to realize that these are huge generating thoughts about stuff happening in the future.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:So acknowledging that that's happening, getting back to the present moment in whatever way works for you.
Julia:And knowing that you've got the strengths and everything within yourself to be able to handle whatever comes.
Liam:Well, that's much better put than my rambling just then, thank you very much for clearing that up, uh, Julia, I, I, I will look forward to the recording.
Liam:No, and I think again, it, some of it does come with being a bit older.
Liam:You know, worrying about the future is a bit bloody stupid because, , who knows?
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:It can go, it can go lots of, lots of different ways.
Liam:Um, uh, so I tend to, I, I'm much better at recognizing the moods I get into.
Liam:You are, you are in your messiah.
Liam:Mode now, Liam, and you know, pack it in.
Liam:You're not the Messiah, you're a, you know, a bald old grandfather.
Liam:Um, or I get into my Stalin mode, which is I'm gonna fucking go in there and sort this out, which is always, doesn't work.
Liam:Might work for 10 minutes, but, you know, we don't have to.
Liam:Stalin ended up in the pool of his own piss, and no one will go near him, so he died.
Liam:So I think with practice and with a bit of, you know, a bit of experience, I have got better at realizing when the generative mindset has become a, a disabling mindset and then being able to kind of, uh, step back from that and get back into the present moment and be much more myself, which I know is gonna be of use to me in my mental health and my happiness, and to the people around me who look to me for leadership.
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:Very profound.
Liam:Yes.
Liam:As I say, you can walk through Liam's thoughts and not get your ankles wet.
Liam:It's that deep.
Liam:Should we have the shameless plug for the book, bit?
Julia:Yeah, let's do the book bit.
Liam:Uh, well, you get the book on, um, uh, Waterstones Online, uh, amazon bookstore dot.
Liam:Just Google it and a, and a platform will, uh, come up or you can get it from the publisher, uh, which is Practical Inspiration Publishing.
Liam:Um, and you can get it on any of those, uh, uh, platforms.
Liam:And I, I hope that the, the thing that has been so great about the feedback on the book is, is that people just say, I found it really useful.
Liam:Because I think inspiration only gets you so far.
Liam:So there aren't a lot of, you know, I have been to the mountain top stuff in there.
Liam:You get a lot of leadership books.
Liam:I want it to.
Liam:People to read it and put it down and go, that was really useful.
Liam:And there's two or three things in there that I'm now going to do differently or try and do better because Liam has reminded me these are important.
Julia:Yeah, great.
Julia:And I love how after every chapter you've put in a series of questions to how people reflect, have them learn.
Julia:Yeah.
Julia:Have them, you know, go inside and see what's there.
Liam:Yeah.
Liam:Again, you know, the reason I don't, I didn't want this book just to be a nice read.
Liam:You know, people read and go, oh, that's really nice.
Liam:I wanted, um, people to find it useful and find it useful by.
Liam:Trying to answer some of the questions that are in there, and some are really straightforward, like, how much shit are you prepared to take?
Liam:And some might be a bit more deep.
Julia:And, and cut out your sticker for not my circus, not my money.
Liam:Yes.
Liam:There is a, um, uh, if we, I actually said to the publisher, that takes a lot of cash and you have to be JK Rowling or Jamie Oliver for a publisher to spend that kind of money.
Liam:But it would've been great if we actually could have had that as a sticker that people could, could put up.
Liam:But there are some cartoons in there as well that have done with, um, Hunt Emerson.
Liam:So I hope people will find it useful that they will get a laugh from it and there'll be enough aha moments, this guy has said some stuff here that resonates with me and it will have been worth the writing.
Julia:And I, you know, I always say love the fact that it's illustrated with your own story.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:But then there's also.
Julia:Uh, the humility of, of other stories in there where things, you know, it's not full of lots of positive stories.
Liam:No.
Julia:It's lots of, you know, I fucked up here.
Liam:Yeah.
Julia:This happened.
Julia:How do I learn from it?
Julia:How do I share my experience so that other people don't have to go through the same?
Liam:I, I, I think that it's, uh, a quote Jeffrey Pfeffer in the book there, and you know, he wrote a book called Leadership BS which when I was at Wavelength I bought for everyone who worked for the company, cuz we were a leadership development training kind of thing.
Liam:And he says that, this obsession of trying to learn from best in class actually doesn't get you that far.
Liam:Because often when you do try and learn from best in class, you're not getting the full picture.
Liam:Whereas learning from people being honest about where they have fucked it up, you may learn more from that, and the humility that comes at that rather than, you know, I tell the story of Enron in there and, oh God.
Liam:I went to Enron the year, it actually 12 months before they all got caught out and, um, sent to jail and they were the most innovative company in America for six years in a row.
Liam:They were lauded, people were pouring money at them, et cetera, and it was all bullshit and fell apart and ruined lots of people and so on.
Liam:So, yeah, it's, it's not full.
Liam:I, you know, I have, I solved homelessness.
Liam:Let me tell you how I did it.
Liam:It's about people saying, I went into one guy in there, you know, I went into, took over a homelessness charity and I thought that I would be solving, coming up with innovative solutions to deal with rough sleeping in London, and how am I spending my time dealing with that wanker who runs our retail.
Julia:Yeah, yeah.
Julia:No, exactly, exactly.
Julia:So the book is, How to Lead with Purpose.
Liam:It is.
Julia:Lessons in Life and Work from the Gloves Off Mentor Liam Black.
Liam:That's me.
Julia:And uh, Buy it.
Julia:If you're listening to this and you have heard something that's really helpful, then buy the book.
Liam:Please do.
Liam:And thank Julia.
Liam:Thanks so much for, for having me to talk.
Liam:Always a pleasure.
Julia:You're very welcome, Liam.
Julia:If people wanna get in touch with you, um, and have some of your gloves off mentoring because they've got a bit more money to spend than the book, how do they get hold of you?
Liam:Uh, they can get hold of me on LinkedIn, uh, or they can get hold of me at liam@asweplease.co.uk.
Julia:I love that conversation with Liam, and if you found it helpful and think someone else would, then please go ahead and share this episode.
Julia:You can do that at generativeleaders.co or any other place you find podcasts.
Julia:My key takeaways from that conversation is what an amazing bullshit detector Liam has developed after all these years.
Julia:And most of all, he's developed that with himself.
Julia:See through seeing through his own bullshit and asking himself the difficult question.
Julia:That ability to self-reflect, that ability to learn, to ask the difficult questions.
Julia:I've witnessed Liam being in many situations where he's bristled people up the wrong way.
Julia:But isn't it, listener the difficult questions that take us farther than anything else?
Julia:It makes us break through areas of thinking.
Julia:It takes us beyond what we currently know.
Julia:The other area that I was really glad that we touched on, cuz Liam's said it to me on many occasions, the only thing that really is gonna get in your own way is yourself.
h a dose of from time to time:grounding ourselves in the present moment and coming back to what we know to be true.
h a dose of from time to time:And acting from that space seems to help us more than we could ever know.
h a dose of from time to time:The third area that really struck me in the conversation today is that when you are really living your purpose, it's a feeling.
h a dose of from time to time:And you know that feeling when you are in it.
h a dose of from time to time:But quite often we can get lost and move away from that feeling.
h a dose of from time to time:And so it can then feel hard and challenging and difficult to get back to our purpose.
h a dose of from time to time:And so it comes back to really asking those questions to see your own thinking, and that's where a mentor can come in really handy to help you explore your own thinking when you can't do it for yourself.
h a dose of from time to time:What did you take away from this conversation and what would you share with others?
