Episode 18
Are you Drama Club or Chess Club?
Embracing neurodiversity and different ways of thinking, more often than not leads to innovative and successful organisations. One simple clue to understanding your own thinking style is to ask whether you’re “drama club” or “chess club”.
The "chess club" represents an analytical approach to problem-solving, while "drama club" is about big picture and storytelling. Implementing both thinking styles makes for a more balanced and effective approach to leadership and decision-making.
Sally Bridgeland has a unique perspective and ability to bridge the gap between approaches, and in this discussion with Julia, highlights the importance of understanding the value of each individual's perception of reality.
By encouraging diverse thinking and creating an inclusive environment, we can tap into the full potential of individuals and drive long-term positive change. If we don’t, we limit the range of perspectives and approaches to problem-solving available to us.
Links
- Connect with Sally via LinkedIn
- Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
Transcript
Diversity is so much more than gender and ethnicity, but how do we account
Speaker:for the invisible forces of diversity, especially when pushed for metrics on it?
Speaker:My guest this week has been sharing her leadership insights on the types
Speaker:of neurodiversity that are needed to create successful organizations.
Speaker:And pointing leaders to the fact of neurodiversity, and that it is
Speaker:an umbrella term used to describe how each person creates their
Speaker:own unique perception of reality.
Speaker:I'm Julia Rebholz, welcome to Generative Leaders.
Speaker:Well, Sally, it's so great to have you here.
Speaker:Um, and I, I, I love the fact that your, your name is Sally Bridgeland
Speaker:because I feel that that is your role in life is bridging different lands.
Speaker:Um, and, uh, living up to your name so brilliantly, but be great to start
Speaker:with a little bit about you, um, so the, the listeners can understand,
Speaker:um, where you are coming from and some of your perspectives and, uh,
Speaker:and then we can, you know, dive into some of the things that you've
Speaker:learned about generative leadership.
Speaker:Certainly, yeah.
Speaker:And I, I think I married the right man.
Speaker:I wasn't born a Bridgeland, but I've, uh, learned how important
Speaker:it is in my life in so many ways.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, I was born a girl good at math.
Speaker:Um, in, uh, sunny Oxfordshire in a little school where my, I was making
Speaker:my, uh, my teacher's life hell by doing loads of extra maths homework.
Speaker:Um, and, uh, had a wonderful headmaster who told my parents it was worth sending
Speaker:me to a school where it was good, where it was okay for girls to be good at maths.
Speaker:And throughout my life, I found myself as being what I describe
Speaker:as a round peg in a square hole.
Speaker:You know, I'm a, I'm a girl that's good at maths.
Speaker:I, I was an environmentalist.
Speaker:I ended up working for BP, I'm an actuary that's passionate about communication.
Speaker:I'm in the Royal Air Force, even though I hate flying in very small planes.
Speaker:Uh, and that, that sort of, habitually uncomfortable, and then sort of being
Speaker:comfortable, being uncomfortable, it is, is almost my, my special superpower,
Speaker:uh, and gives me that, that sort of off the scale independence and being, being
Speaker:comfortable, thinking slightly different, uh, uh, differently about things.
Speaker:But these days I'm a, um, I've got a portfolio of non-executive roles
Speaker:on financial services companies.
Speaker:So I, I chair an asset manager.
Speaker:And, uh, I'm on the board of three insurers, but I'm also really
Speaker:passionate about maths education.
Speaker:And I do that in a traditional way on the advisory committee at the Royal
Speaker:Society, uh, but also I chair the strategic advisory board for the Centre
Speaker:of Maths Cognition at, uh, Loughborough University, which is all about doing
Speaker:research into how we really learn maths and, uh, you know, improving
Speaker:that with that quality of thinking.
Speaker:Um, because getting confident.
Speaker:In maths, I think is a, is a real empowerer for, for so many, for so
Speaker:many people and potentially, um, a, a way of leveling up and helping people
Speaker:move into, into different areas.
Speaker:One of the things I'm really passionate about is that diversity of thinking.
Speaker:And just because you don't fit in the right mould, you're not the square peg
Speaker:in the square hole, um, that actually, that doesn't mean that you can't do it.
Speaker:Um, and, uh, things that build people's confidence and make them
Speaker:feel welcome and included are, are really, really important in that.
Speaker:There's so many things in what you just said that I'd love to ask you
Speaker:about, um, but I think we'd probably be here all day, but I, I'd love to
Speaker:ask you about, you know, that that journey that you've been on about, sort
Speaker:of feeling uncomfortable and getting.
Speaker:Comfortable in the uncomfortable and how you sort of help other people now do that.
Speaker:So, if I look at, uh, uh, and I was asked to draw recently a, a,
Speaker:a, a graph of my motivation over time and, and the things that have
Speaker:demotivated you and motivated you.
Speaker:And I think I've been an all time high now.
Speaker:You know, I, I really enjoy what I'm doing, but I wouldn't have got here and
Speaker:been here and wouldn't have had the skills I had unless I'd taken an untrodden path.
Speaker:And that, that really started probably about like, like most of us, it,
Speaker:it, it seven years into a a role.
Speaker:So I'd trained as actuarial, um, consultant, qualify as an actuary.
Speaker:And then you find yourself kind of doing the same job that you
Speaker:were doing three years ago.
Speaker:'cause actuarial work has a bit of a three year cycle and
Speaker:you thought Where's this going?
Speaker:And, uh, I was in a bit of a dead man's shoes kind of situation.
Speaker:So I thought, well, what do I, what am I passionate about?
Speaker:What am I good at?
Speaker:What will they carry on paying me for?
Speaker:This is the sort of Jim Collins hedgehog concept, although I
Speaker:didn't know it at the time.
Speaker:Uh, and I thought, well, I am, I'm interested in technology and how we
Speaker:use this, this was sort of mid 1990s.
Speaker:And I think, um, I can make more money for the firm by making us more efficient
Speaker:than I can by going out there, winning a big client and that kind of stuff.
Speaker:And given that nobody else is doing this, how about I do this?
Speaker:And to a certain extent it was, it was career limiting and wasn't the
Speaker:right, wasn't the traditional path.
Speaker:But for me it was much more rewarding, uh, and actually was, was more enjoyable
Speaker:at the time, and then has also meant that I've got different skills later on.
Speaker:So it took its time to come through.
Speaker:But in terms of my leadership journey, what I would encourage people to do is, Do
Speaker:things that you really enjoy doing that, that are really playing to your skills.
Speaker:Uh, at school we tend to be encouraged to be good at everything and polymaths and
Speaker:all that sort of stuff, but there will still be things that you enjoy doing more.
Speaker:And if you can play to those, that's where you can really do some, some
Speaker:excellent work and, and make a difference.
Speaker:This podcast is all about generating different results for
Speaker:society, for future generations.
Speaker:What have you seen about that in, you know, the multitude of different,
Speaker:uh, arenas that you operate within?
Speaker:I think the thing that, that, um, that worries me most, if I can start with
Speaker:worry, I'm not a great warrior, is.
Speaker:Is the lack of imagination and the lack of really thinking five, 10 years out.
Speaker:And for, for good ideas to have their time, you have to have that
Speaker:conviction for quite a long time and to be able to choose the moment.
Speaker:So kind of what I've learned is that, you know, just because an idea is completely
Speaker:obvious to me and incredibly logical, doesn't mean that it's gonna happen
Speaker:right now because of all the different factors that that need to come into that.
Speaker:Uh, and I think that that, that the, the worry stems from having a very
Speaker:sort of one year annual cycle, business plan, remuneration, all of those
Speaker:kinds of metrics, which can mean that actually the short term, you know, a
Speaker:series of short-term does not add up to the long-term direction, because
Speaker:you've, you've carried on moving steps in a particular way without actually
Speaker:thinking about what you could have done.
Speaker:And, and you're focusing much more on avoiding doing bad stuff rather
Speaker:than what the good stuff, what that kind of North Star might be.
Speaker:And it just, so, I mean the phrase responsible investment was one that
Speaker:we invented for competition running the FT in 2003, that's 20 years ago.
Speaker:It takes a long time for something difficult to become mainstream when
Speaker:there are so many reasons why it can get shoved to the bottom of the agenda.
Speaker:And that I think is, is one of the big challenges is, is our kind of
Speaker:piecemeal, short term way of thinking about businesses, rather than saying,
Speaker:actually, how could life be different in five years, 10 years time?
Speaker:And what can we do about it to make sure not only that the bad stuff is
Speaker:avoided, but the good stuff happens.
Speaker:And do you think that's a factor of people being limited by a certain
Speaker:set of boundaries or conditions that, you know, limit their thinking?
Speaker:Um, and sort of the fear that they won't be able to influence other
Speaker:people to make long-term change?
Speaker:I think long term is just more difficult.
Speaker:And we're also taught, I think, much as I benefited hugely from the education
Speaker:system in that, you know, I was a girly swap, passed my exams, got straight A's
Speaker:in first class degree nah, nah, nah.
Speaker:life isn't like that.
Speaker:There's no syllabus, there's no right answer.
Speaker:Um, and if you, you're trained and you believe that success is scoring
Speaker:these points and, and playing this game in particular moves, actually
Speaker:you're deluding yourself 'cause you're missing the impact that not only you,
Speaker:but the broader piece has, uh, you know, the company or the organization
Speaker:that you work with could have.
Speaker:So an example of a square peg, round hole moment is when I was thinking
Speaker:about joining BP, and I asked one of the families, uh, great mentors what
Speaker:he thought about me as a, a cycle riding environmentalist joining BP.
Speaker:And he said, well, I'll let you into a secret.
Speaker:My first job was, was within the ang with, with the Anglo Iranian Oil
Speaker:Company, which is one of the, the prior organizations to BP, and he said, and
Speaker:there's only so much you can do by being one family, not having a car.
Speaker:If you are in a bigger organization and understand how that works, how they think
Speaker:about things, and what you can do with 20 billion pounds of pension fund assets,
Speaker:and think about it in that perspective, how much greater your influence could be.
Speaker:And he sort of turned it round and sort of said, well, are you up for it?
Speaker:Are you up to it?
Speaker:So that's the difference.
Speaker:It is not just, it's thinking about what you could do rather
Speaker:than almost what success looks like against particular metrics.
Speaker:And I think our, sadly, our education system suits and, and our idea of
Speaker:success will select people who are good at playing that particular game and
Speaker:scoring those particular points that then instills a bit of culture in business
Speaker:that, that's what success looks like.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is hitting that number at the end of the quarter, at the end of the year.
Speaker:It's not thinking beyond that.
Speaker:And it also might mean that those who are less successful academically, it
Speaker:is kind of a bit divisive in thinking that, well, actually it's not about
Speaker:that, it's not about the money, it's not about the financial results, but it
Speaker:almost divides the population into two.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, and, and pits commerce against philanthropy in a way
Speaker:that increasingly I'm seeing is being mushed together a bit more.
Speaker:You know, charities have to be more commercial, businesses have to be more
Speaker:conscious of the impact that they're making, and so you're having to blend
Speaker:those two points of view and that's hard.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I, I know that you've got this great way of sort of, you know,
Speaker:thinking about these two sort of parts of society and um, and how they come
Speaker:together and how you can bridge that.
Speaker:I'd love, I'd love, uh, for you to sort of talk about a little bit about these
Speaker:different clubs that you've come to see.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, so, so I think, um, and fundamentally that's the criticism there is that we've
Speaker:got businesses become too chess club.
Speaker:But let's, let's rewind to the, where did this come from?
Speaker:This, this came from, um, uh, a guy called Len, who coaches the leadership
Speaker:team in, in the US for Impax, which is an organization that I chair
Speaker:that is all about investing in the transition to a sustainable economy.
Speaker:So it's, it's quite forward thinking and has been very high growth recently.
Speaker:And Len had come over and had met members of our, um, executive team, and was
Speaker:reporting back to myself and the chief executive and he said, Hey, uh, Sally,
Speaker:you know, I've, I've met members of your chess club and members of your drama club.
Speaker:And I, you know, inside burst out laughing because I thought, I know exactly who
Speaker:you are talking about, or they, the stereotypes, the characterizations of
Speaker:people, but I'm probably a bit more drama club in, in thinking about that.
Speaker:So the characterizations, the way that, that I have, um, would then almost
Speaker:translate the idea into a chess club way of thinking of things, being an analytical
Speaker:would be Drama Club are the ones who know what happily ever after looks like.
Speaker:They've got the story, they gathered together, the characters
Speaker:for the plot, they set the scene.
Speaker:They're much better at the, uh, describing the big picture, describing the vision,
Speaker:um, and chess club are the ones who are much better at learning the particular
Speaker:moves, um, deciding what, again, what winning the game looks like, uh, and
Speaker:doing all those moves so that it happens.
Speaker:Everything in the right order, in the right place, um, that kind of approach.
Speaker:So you might characterize marketing people as being drama club, uh, and
Speaker:compliance people as being chess club.
Speaker:And different neurotypes will, will be drawn towards working
Speaker:in, in those different areas.
Speaker:Where I have found it useful is in thinking, um, about, about two things.
Speaker:You know, one is as a non-exec, you want to be non-exec.
Speaker:Uh, and your role is to be non-exec, not to micromanage.
Speaker:If you are presented with loads and loads of numbers, and we are gonna teach you
Speaker:about this so that you understand it and agree with us, that's Chess Club.
Speaker:That's giving you all the detail so that you then know as much or nearly
Speaker:as much as the executive, uh, and can ask those detailed kind of questions.
Speaker:The question I often ask is, okay, gimme the Drama Club on this.
Speaker:You know, what's, what's the story?
Speaker:What are we trying to achieve?
Speaker:What's the purpose of this?
Speaker:Um, and give me that overview.
Speaker:And then if I need to know the moves, I, I'll ask about the moves, but
Speaker:actually I don't normally need to.
Speaker:You know, you'll always know the moves better than me.
Speaker:And it's not about me knowing it more than you or less than you.
Speaker:Um, that's not being, having a different role and a different perspective.
Speaker:The whole point is to, is to have that, that different perspective.
Speaker:So for any individual task, it's kind of making sure that there's been enough
Speaker:drama club around, you know, actuaries are very good at doing detailed models on
Speaker:analysis, but if you don't know why you're doing it, you can actually make something
Speaker:fundamentally wrong and it won't add up.
Speaker:It won't fit with the other bits, the other characters that are
Speaker:being used or the people that are actually using the analysis.
Speaker:So that's on sort of task by task.
Speaker:Have you involved both sides of thinking about, about this?
Speaker:Um, and also in every phase of a business, um, and I, uh, I always used to promise
Speaker:my team at BP a year of consolidation, which would be kind of in the, the
Speaker:chess club, uh, you know, actually we just, we just need to batten down
Speaker:and make sure that our, our processes are really good, that we're, we're
Speaker:churning out the, the right reports.
Speaker:Uh, again, that's, that's kind of chess club activity and there are people,
Speaker:uh, and pension fund administration is absolute, you know, most, most of
Speaker:the time it's just making sure you get the numbers right because there
Speaker:is a right answer and a wrong answer.
Speaker:Dealing with, with pensioners on the phone is much more about empathy,
Speaker:giving them the bigger picture.
Speaker:If you haven't got the answer yet, giving them a, uh, the story
Speaker:about, well, this is, this is how long it's going to take and we'll
Speaker:keep you posted and dah, dah, dah.
Speaker:So in pensions admin, you tended to find that people would forget
Speaker:about that drama club bit.
Speaker:Actually, people get worried when they don't hear something.
Speaker:So just keep them from, even if you've got nothing to tell 'em,
Speaker:oh, but I wanna wait until I've got 20 out of 10 or 11 out of 10.
Speaker:It's, it's absolutely perfect, and then I'll show you No, no, no, don't.
Speaker:Eight outta 10 is the new 10 outta 10.
Speaker:Just, just tell me how it's going and I'll, you see any problems.
Speaker:That's the, that's the drama club overlay.
Speaker:So there will be different phases where in a Startup you'll have
Speaker:much more of the drama club because you'll need to bring everybody in
Speaker:and sell the idea, and uh, everybody comes along with you that vision.
Speaker:It's really important, but then you need to make sure you don't
Speaker:leave the chess club behind.
Speaker:So if you think about books like Thinking, Fast and Slow, it's,
Speaker:it's normally certain in behavioral finances, it's about the, the innovators
Speaker:who get ahead of themselves, the overconfident chief executives.
Speaker:It is the drama club, not bringing the chess club with them or not bringing
Speaker:that sort of chess club element of thinking with them, so that they haven't
Speaker:got the right levels of compliance, data accounting, all that stuff
Speaker:that you have to do to be a robust business has kind of got left behind.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:And you'll see it's a bit like if I, uh, I look at my career, I went through phases
Speaker:of deep specialists and then generalizing and then moving over to another area
Speaker:of specialism, and then generalizing and then moving over to another area
Speaker:of specialism and generalizing and finding something shiny over here that
Speaker:wanted to do, you know, all of that.
Speaker:You, you, you go through phases in a business of actually needing
Speaker:to make sure that one side of it is caught up with the other.
Speaker:Uh, or you need to invest in, an asset growing asset manager.
Speaker:You need to invest in the compliance side of it, the system side of it, the
Speaker:reporting side of it, otherwise you can't scale up and then you can grow, so
Speaker:it's, which is again, is more drama club.
Speaker:What's, what's going on out there?
Speaker:What's the big picture that we can play into?
Speaker:Yeah, it's really, really interesting 'cause it's making me think about, you
Speaker:know, we often, there's this narrative, around, you know, the founder of the
Speaker:company can't be the long-term, uh, person for, for the company, you know,
Speaker:sort of, the way you've just breaking that down is that, you know, they often
Speaker:have the idea, they often have the vision, they often, you know, sell that
Speaker:to a number of people to get funding to get it, you know, off the ground.
Speaker:But they haven't then necessarily got the cognition to think about, well,
Speaker:you know, what's the system, what's the process, what's, what needs to be
Speaker:in place to bring everyone with me?
Speaker:And that's the sort of breaking point, um, in a, in a growth of a business.
Speaker:Yeah, and I, I think, I suppose my experience at BP more than
Speaker:anything, so I, I saw the end of John Brown, all of Tony Hayward, and
Speaker:the beginning of, um, Bob Dudley.
Speaker:Um, you know, Bob was in, in, uh, Russia at some, you know, hidden away
Speaker:in Russia, I think when I started at BP.
Speaker:what, what my main learning from that was you needed the right
Speaker:chief executive at the right time.
Speaker:That's what I felt at the time and when I've been on boards since, pretty much
Speaker:every board that I've been on has gone through a change of chief executive.
Speaker:And the role of the chair, I think is to, is to do that sort of yin and yang with
Speaker:the chief executives so that if they have got preferences of doing things one way
Speaker:that you make sure they've got people around them who can do the other stuff.
Speaker:You know, I'm having been a, a, a chief executive that did it three days a
Speaker:week at at the BP Pension Fund, I'm a firm believer that the chief executive
Speaker:doesn't have to do everything that most chief executives think they have to do.
Speaker:Um, and that having a chief of staff, a deputy, the right team
Speaker:is actually really important.
Speaker:But equally, knowing your, not just your strengths and weaknesses,
Speaker:but what your preferences are.
Speaker:Because everybody around you knows whether you like doing something or not.
Speaker:Uh, and if you are, if you prefer operating in a, in a chess club
Speaker:mode, and it, it is something that's.
Speaker:That's really interesting in, in the Air Force because the chief changes
Speaker:very regularly, very frequently.
Speaker:And so you are always thinking about, well, what's, what's the chief good at?
Speaker:And have they got the right people around them to put, put that, put that together?
Speaker:And I think you can, even if you don't enjoy flexing, um, and I speak as someone
Speaker:who I, I would regard myself as being on the edge in so many ways between
Speaker:the chess club and the drama club, If, if you don't enjoy one side of it or
Speaker:you find it exhausting, then make sure you've got the right people around you.
Speaker:So I, I think you don't have to change the chief executive, but the chief
Speaker:executive might need to flex more than we might have wanted them to in the past.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:That, that, that being a, being a flexible leader is, is really important.
Speaker:And how do you think that happens?
Speaker:You know, 'cause we're all so conditioned to think in certain ways,
Speaker:we've, you know, we've talked about the education system really shaping
Speaker:that way that you are in life, but also your family, your background,
Speaker:you know, that shaping how, how do you see people sort of break free of the
Speaker:shackles of their current conditioning?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I think some of the things like Myers Briggs Inside Color Wheel, you
Speaker:know, all of that is, is helpful in you getting to know yourself a bit better and
Speaker:getting to know what your preferences are, how you behave in stress, all of that.
Speaker:But the reason I, I'm finding chess club drama club, so compelling as
Speaker:a, as a narrative in, apart from the fact that it just makes people
Speaker:smile, is that it's simpler than that.
Speaker:And it's about, it's about thinking about the people around you, and
Speaker:what are the strengths and the people around you that you can draw on.
Speaker:it is that, that pause for thought and that reflectiveness, which I
Speaker:think is important in all leaders.
Speaker:Sometimes it comes from not getting on with people or, you know, finding
Speaker:people difficult to relate to.
Speaker:And that could be because they're, they're kind of, they're from the
Speaker:other club and they, they really don't, don't think in that way.
Speaker:I think part of my success over time has been being able to,
Speaker:to shift between those clubs.
Speaker:I can be an actuary's actuary if I need to be an actuary's actuary.
Speaker:I can go up on stage and, uh, make people laugh and be the real
Speaker:drama club to get an idea across.
Speaker:I can do both of those.
Speaker:I said I don't always do the right one at the right time.
Speaker:But actually practicing, deliberately practicing both of
Speaker:those I think is, is very helpful.
Speaker:Or just knowing when you are not in your element and getting, getting
Speaker:more help, whether that's other people around you, that's, that's
Speaker:how people can, can learn that.
Speaker:But, but I think one of the most important things I learned was how important
Speaker:as a, as a team leader it is and, and if you're aspiring to be an inclusive
Speaker:team leader, which obviously I think everybody should be, to get the best
Speaker:out of their teams, is to vocalize your thought processes and be open about it.
Speaker:So I mean, one of the things I discovered was, even though there might be
Speaker:incontrovertible chess club logic about my proposed route forward and why I was
Speaker:asking my team to do the things that I was asking them to do, actually, there
Speaker:may be other factors, probably more drama club factors about personalities and
Speaker:baggage and politics in an organization or with stakeholders that if I talked
Speaker:people through my logic, they'd say, Hmm, yeah, but, so and so doesn't like
Speaker:that, that's, that word will just set 'em off and, you know, a bit of baggage
Speaker:that's five years old and we just don't need that, that's just not helpful.
Speaker:And faced with presenting something and saying, please can you do this?
Speaker:You know, ask them really nicely, but them not really being bought into it, you,
Speaker:you, you risk some passive resistance.
Speaker:And that is the one thing that winds me up in my life is, is
Speaker:people say, yeah, I'll do that.
Speaker:And they don't.
Speaker:So if you've, if you've gone through that process of saying, this is why I
Speaker:think we should do what we should do, I.
Speaker:And this is the story and these are the characters and this is how you do this and
Speaker:you do that and we'll all put it together and dah, dah, dah, dah, first night
Speaker:nerves, but yeah, the show must go on.
Speaker:In that way.
Speaker:They all understand why their role is their role and what their purpose is
Speaker:in, in delivering on that, which can be really helpful in then drawing out
Speaker:those contributions that make it a more, more resilient path to follow.
Speaker:I mean, one of the things we've talked about a lot on this, on
Speaker:this podcast is the, the invisible nature of people's thinking.
Speaker:And that, um, you know, we, we as leaders, we as human beings, we
Speaker:have our own thought processes and quite often they're just happening.
Speaker:We don't, we don't know what they are, um, until we start
Speaker:vocalizing and, and hearing them.
Speaker:You know, and it's, it's that moment of hearing yourself
Speaker:say, and you're like, really?
Speaker:Do I think that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then being able to draw that out of others is, is such
Speaker:an important skill as a leader.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think one of my, one of my favorite bosses, 'cause you made me laugh
Speaker:so much, um, was a guy who, he would deliberately argue with you.
Speaker:And, and, and I know I'm not classically trained, so I don't know, um.
Speaker:I, I know there are, there are Greek ways of saying this is
Speaker:how we learn is by arguing.
Speaker:Uh, I ascribed to the fact that he was a big rugby fan.
Speaker:Fan, and, you know, it was a bit of, let's have a scrum about this.
Speaker:And as soon as I realized that he wasn't arguing with me because he disagreed
Speaker:with me, but he was arguing with me because he was rounding out his thinking,
Speaker:it was fine and it was a great game.
Speaker:You know, it was chess club rather than drum club.
Speaker:It was, okay, I'm helping, helping you understand these things.
Speaker:He also used to set two people on the same task and see what
Speaker:different ideas you came over.
Speaker:Of course, you'd find out the other person was doing it and
Speaker:you'd think, why is he doing that?
Speaker:That's really irritating.
Speaker:Well, a waste of energy, but actually was looking at how different people
Speaker:did, did things differently, again to make his own thinking richer.
Speaker:On, on, on the subject.
Speaker:But yeah, I, I do think it's a danger of, uh, I'm a big fan of hybrid working,
Speaker:but I do think it's, it's more difficult to think aloud in front of a camera.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Uh, and so, and to, to think aloud when you're taking turns.
Speaker:Whereas in a room, one of the, one of the 3D and smell vision stuff that you
Speaker:get is, is how people are reacting.
Speaker:So if I was going through my, this is why, da, da, da, I suspect that if you
Speaker:did that on Teams and you were waiting people to put their hands up or write
Speaker:a comment in the chat, you'd get less feedback than you would by just sensing
Speaker:that somebody's, somebody's got a bit of a doubt about this, that you then
Speaker:need to encourage them to bring out.
Speaker:They might just zone out.
Speaker:Again, it's a bit of a passive resistance kind of thing.
Speaker:They're start doing their emails rather than, you know, Sally's off on one again.
Speaker:Whereas rather, you know, I need you to help me here, guys.
Speaker:Um, I will, you know, on the screen I might come across as being super
Speaker:confident and dah, dah, dah, dah, this is route forward, off we go.
Speaker:Um, whereas I think in the room, face-to-face, sipping a cup of tea, it
Speaker:just feels different and more tentative.
Speaker:And so you can get more outta people that way.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker:'cause it is for me, it's a question of.
Speaker:Are we just socially conditioned?
Speaker:We've lived our lives being together and so, you know, we've just become
Speaker:used to that and it's sort of like this nor new normal of being on teams,
Speaker:being on screens, you know, how do we start to unlearn everything that
Speaker:we've learned and start to learn how, how do you do that through a screen?
Speaker:How do you,
Speaker:yeah, yeah.
Speaker:How do you start to pick up on those things?
Speaker:How do you start to, um, notice them?
Speaker:Which is a, you know, it's a, it is a big question for humanity 'cause it sort
Speaker:of looks like we're not going back to everybody in the office all the time.
Speaker:So, and what's really interesting, so it was a session that, um, Dr.
Speaker:Hannah Critchlow was running recently from, from Cambridge,
Speaker:and she, she was referring to some research where, and it was about
Speaker:teams and how teams work together.
Speaker:You know, teams that sing together, run together, you know, do do something
Speaker:together where their, their brains basically, their brain activity gets
Speaker:synchronized and rhythm in the same rhythm that happens when you're in person, but
Speaker:didn't used to happen when we were just doing stuff virtually, but it's starting
Speaker:to happen now we're doing stuff virtually.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that's a how interesting is our brain.
Speaker:It's amazing.
Speaker:And how, how might we be able to do that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I think the, the challenge of course is you've got, you've
Speaker:got a group of people who were successful at doing it the old way.
Speaker:So we'll have a natural preference and probably a strength at doing it that way,
Speaker:and maybe less good at doing that way.
Speaker:I found lockdown.
Speaker:Amazing in terms of, I think it's built my confidence because I quite like
Speaker:being in a board meeting from my own environment, which makes me feel more
Speaker:comfortable and more confident, and I'm quite good with the technology, so I'm
Speaker:good at remembering to take the mute off.
Speaker:I'm good at typing comments in the chat, putting my hand up, which
Speaker:I think gave me more of a voice than I would otherwise have had.
Speaker:It could just be the passage of time.
Speaker:I've been being a non-exec for nine years now and dah, dah, dah, dah.
Speaker:But I found when I was then back in the boardroom, real life, I think I was
Speaker:behaving differently and more confidently having had that, that time virtual.
Speaker:But yeah, how it changes us and how we, I think we're really just in the, in
Speaker:the foothills of working out how to, how to do things better, how to, how to be.
Speaker:More directive about what things are best done face-to-face and not, and
Speaker:kind of what that means for the, the softer things around what it means to
Speaker:work for an organization, about that sense of community, that sense of
Speaker:attachment to the area in which you're working and all of that stuff is just,
Speaker:we're just beginning to explore that.
Speaker:I don't think we'll go back to.
Speaker:Exactly the way it was.
Speaker:And I'm, I'm quite glad about that, 'cause I think it is more
Speaker:accommodating for people who, who don't find going into the office the
Speaker:optimal way or for them to contribute.
Speaker:But we've still got a long way to go before we're, we're
Speaker:kind of settled in that.
Speaker:I find that exciting rather than, uh, challenging or worrying.
Speaker:Yeah, well, on that exciting note, we should probably, um, end our
Speaker:conversation there, but I feel like we've got loads more we could discuss.
Speaker:So maybe you'll come back at another time and, uh.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:We're delighted.
Speaker:Do it again.
Speaker:Yep, thank you so much Sally
Speaker:Pleasure.
Speaker:And What a fascinating conversation with Sally.
Speaker:She really has been a pioneer in her field and helped people to re recognize those
Speaker:differences that exist within all of us.
Speaker:Some reflections at the end of the conversation.
Speaker:Can you identify yourself as having a bias for either chess club or drama
Speaker:club, and what does that do for you?
Speaker:I notice in myself there are times when I really wanna tell the story and understand
Speaker:all of the actors, and then other times where a process is needed or something
Speaker:needs to come together in the strategy.
Speaker:Being able to traverse those two operating centers has been really helpful for me in
Speaker:working with lots of different leaders.
Speaker:How about those in your organization?
Speaker:Can you identify those people that really just wanna tell the story and
Speaker:those that want to know the next move and what the process is going to be?
Speaker:Can you see the value in both?
Speaker:What does it help you to do in your organization?
Speaker:And do you have one or more weighted in the organization,
Speaker:and what might that mean?
Speaker:If you've enjoyed this episode of Generative Leaders, please go
Speaker:ahead and share it with others.
Speaker:I look forward to seeing you next time on Generative Leaders.
